EFTA00068582

200 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
call you to schedule the flights; isn't that right? 
A. It would be a variety. Whoever got the message would pass 
it along to us, correct. 
Q. Right. And I think you said that in the 1990s, you didn't 
have cellphones; right? 
A. Correct. It was a beeper, pager. 
Q. Beeper. This was over 20 years ago at this point; right? 
A. Coming in on 30, but yes, correct. 
Q. Coming in on 30. That's before everybody owned a 
cellphone; correct? 
A. Yes. 
Q. But you did have the beepers? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And you and 
would get a message on your beeper; 
right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And you would call back Epstein's office, usually; right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Because that's usually where the call came from, isn't it? 
A. That's correct. That was the number that would appear for 
departure. 
Q. And you would talk to Epstein's secretary or assistant or 
whoever was going to schedule that flight? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Now, occasionally, you said you talked to Ghislaine about 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068662

201 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
this, about scheduling? 
A. Occasionally Ghislaine would reach out. Several people 
would reach out. Whoever Jeffrey told, hey, get the plane 
ready, that's the person that contacted me. 
Q. It was usually the case, if you spoke to Ghislaine about 
flight, she was going to be traveling on that flight? 
A. Most of the time, sure. 
Q. And in the 2000s now, fast forwarding to a later time 
period, you spoke to different people about scheduling flights; 
isn't that right? 
A. Yeah, whoever would get the message, correct. It would be 
different people. 
Q. Well, one person you spoke to in the 2000s was 
; isn't that right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. And 
was Epstein's secretary? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. And she worked in Epstein's New York office? 
A. That is correct. 
Q. Do you recall what number you used to call her on? 
A. Yes, the main office number. 
Q. Do you remember what that number was? 
A. Yes, I do. 
Q. What was it? 
A. 212-750-9895. 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068663

202 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. But the person I think you spoke most often to about 
scheduling flights in the 2000s was not 
, it was 
; isn't that right? 
A. She would also schedule flights, yes. 
Q. You met 
, you said? 
A. Yes, I have. 
MR. EVERDELL: If we can pull up for the members of 
the jury and everyone else Government Exhibit 327, which is 
already admitted. 
Q. That's 
isn't it? 
A. That is 
, yes. 
Q. Now, you say you think you met her sometime in the early 
2000s; is that right? 
A. It could have been late '90s. Again, we're 20, 21 years 
ago, but yeah, it was late '90. It could have been 2000. - 
remember Ms. 
obviously flying on the Boeing, which would 
have been 2000 and later. Yeah, it was late '90s. It's the 
best I could do as far as recollection. 
Q. Well, isn't it true that she first flew on one of Epstein's 
planes in September of 2001? 
A. I believe she -- well, she probably did because she was 
around in '01 when the Boeing was there. I haven't gotten 
any -- I don't have any documentation or -- but yes. 
MR. EVERDELL: Let me see if there is something that 
might refresh your recollection. I would like to pull up just 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068664

LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
for the Court, the deputy, and for the witness 3527-07 at page 
86. I'll repeat for clarity that's 3527-007 at page 86. 
THE COURT: Let me know when you're ready, Ms. Comey. 
MS. COMEY: I'm there. Thank you, your Honor. 
THE COURT: Thank you. 
BY MR. EVERDELL: 
Q. Mr. 
, if I could direct your attention to the sixth 
entry down on that list you're looking at. If you could just 
take a look at that. Just see if that refreshes your 
recollection about the first time 
flew.
A. Is that the September 3rd date you're looking? 
Q. I'm asking, does that refresh your recollection? 
A. Well, it's a document of a regularly scheduled route. 
Obviously it's not my logbook. It was normal -- there was a 
typical routing that we would fly. It's the best I could say, 
but it would appear to be the -- it doesn't refresh of any, you 
know, certainty, but sure, that would be a date that we would 
do a trip like that. 
Q. Okay. So I'll just rephrase. 
, to the best of 
your recollection, was flying on Epstein's planes in the early 
2000s? 
A. Yes. Correct. 
MR. EVERDELL: You can take that down. 
Q. Now, that is around the time when Epstein 
excuse me. 
When 
became Epstein's personal assistant; isn't 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068665

204 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
that right? 
A. I didn't know what her exact job detail was. I mean, I 
considered her position or her title, you know, throughout the 
same as far as to being Mr. Jeffrey's assistant or 
Ms. Maxwell's assistant, just that she was there as an 
employee. 
Q. Your recollection is that she was an employee who worked 
with Epstein; is that fair to say? 
A. Yeah. Exactly, yes. 
Q. But you're a little unclear exactly what her role was? 
A. Correct. 
Q. But she certainly did some work for Epstein in the time she 
worked in his office? 
A. Exactly, yes. 
Q. Do you recall, she was married to 
right: 
A. Later in life, I believe she got married to 
Q. So you said that 
would call you to arrange the 
flight departures? 
A. Sometimes, sure, yes. 
Q. And by that point in the 2000s or the early 2000s, you had 
cellphones; right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. So 
, when she did call you, would call your 
cellphone to arrange a flight; is that right? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068666

205 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. That is correct. 
Q. In fact, you spoke to 
so often at that point 
that you had her number on speed dial in your phone; isn't that 
right? 
A. Most likely, yes. 
Q. Do you recall what 
phone number was? 
A. I do not. 
MR. EVERDELL: Let me show you something, see if it 
refreshes your recollection. I want to call up 3527-001, we'll 
go to the third page. That is just for the Court, the deputy, 
and the witness, please. 
MR. EVERDELL: May I proceed, your Honor? 
THE COURT: Yes. 
MS. COMEY: Thank you. 
Q. Mr. 
, do you have that document in front of you? 
A. Yes, I do. 
Q. Do you see just sort of maybe a third of the way down from 
the top of the page, there is an entry there. Does that 
refresh your recollection on what 
phone number 
was? 
A. Her number wasn't embranded in my mind as a memory, but the 
number does come back to me as being 
cellphone 
number. 
Q. So the number, was it 
A. That's correct, yes. 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068667

206 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you. You can take that down. 
Q. So in the 2000s, that's the number you would speak to 
on about arranging flights? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Now, regardless of who you spoke to about scheduling 
flights, when you were told that Epstein needed to fly 
somewhere, you would need to be given certain information about 
the flight; correct? 
A. Sure. 
Q. Like, for example, you would need to be given the date of 
when Epstein wanted to fly? 
A. Correct. 
Q. You would need to be given roughly the time of departure: 
A. Yes. 
Q. And you would need to be given the destination where you're 
going to fly; right? 
A. Yes. That would be helpful, yes. 
Q. You might want to follow a flight plan or something like 
that? 
A. Yes. 
Q. But you wouldn't necessarily be told who was going to be 
going on the flight; right? 
A. Not at all. 
Q. If you had someone who was particularly important that was 
going to be on the flight, you might be told ahead of time? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068668

207 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. Exactly. 
Q. So, for example, I believe former president Bill Clinton 
flew on Epstein's planes a few times in the 2000s; isn't that 
right? 
A. Yes, he did. 
Q. So if he were going to be on the flight, you might be told 
that information in advance? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Because you might want to make sure the plane looked nice? 
A. Exactly. 
Q. You might want to invite some special caterer? 
A. Sure. 
Q. But otherwise, you might not know who would be traveling on 
the flight at all; is that right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. And even when the passengers arrived at the airport, even 
then, you wouldn't necessarily meet all the passengers; right? 
A. No, not at all. 
Q. A lot of the time you didn't meet them? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Sometimes you were just given their names? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And you wouldn't always be given all of their names; right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Sometimes you would just be given a first name? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068669

208 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. Sure. 
Q. But even if you weren't told all the names or you didn't 
have all the names, you did try to keep track of how many 
people were on the plane; right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Because as you mentioned before in testimony, pilots need 
to fill out a passenger manifest for each flight; right? 
A. They don't have to on general aviation. It was more for 
weight and balance. It was my understanding we kept passenger 
information more for tax reasons on who flew on the aircraft in 
the early days. Might not be the case at this point, but we 
still tried to keep as accurate records, if we could, even if 
it wasn't necessary. 
Q. Fair enough. So but you did try to keep passenger 
manifests for flights on Epstein's planes? 
A. Absolutely, yes. 
Q. And a manifest, I think you described, among other things, 
contains the list of the passenger names if you have them; is 
that right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. And if you didn't know their names, you might put in 
something like one female or one male or one passenger to note 
a named passenger? 
A. Exactly. We tried to at least identify the sex rather than 
just put one passenger. So that's why we had put male or 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068670

209 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
female if we didn't catch a name. 
Q. Obviously, if you did know the name or it was a person you 
recognized from before, you would put their name on the 
manifest? 
A. Absolutely. 
Q. And you said that it was important to keep track of the 
head count, which is why you wanted to know how many people 
were on the plane; right? 
A. That is correct. 
Q. Now, you said weight was also a consideration; is that 
right? 
A. It's a consideration on some aircraft, not the kind that 
we're flying, but it's something that should take into account 
or as far as how heavy luggage is. But it is a consideration 
as a pilot to know how much something weighs as far as luggage 
and/or passenger. 
Q. And that's if you're flying a small plane, for example, you 
need to know the weight of the passengers? 
A. Exactly, yes. 
Q. But for the planes you were flying for Epstein, 
particularly the Gulf Stream and the Boeing, you didn't need to 
know the weight for those planes; right? 
A. It was not necessary, no. It's, like I said, more of a 
head count, but yeah, it's not a factor in these type of 
aircraft. 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068671

210 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. Right, because the Boeing, as we saw it, it's huge; right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. And the Gulf Stream is not a little prop plane, it has a 
jet engine; right? 
A. Correct. It's not power challenged, correct. 
Q. So it wasn't your practice to ask passengers their weight 
before they boarded? 
A. No, absolutely not. 
Q. Now, it was sometimes the case, wasn't it, that if one of 
Epstein's friends or acquaintances or family members needed to 
go to the same place he was flying, he would take them on his 
plane; right? 
A. I'm sure on occasion. I don't know for a fact, but sure, 
if we were going to the same place, he may extend an invitation 
for somebody to come along. 
Q. He did have friends and family members and other people 
traveling on his plane? 
A. That is correct, yes. I see what you're saying. 
Q. It's like offering a lift in your car, except it's a jet? 
A. Correct, yes. 
Q. You call these people tagalongs; right? 
A. Yeah, there is several names, sure, but tagalongs or extra 
guest. 
Q. Now, in those cases, if the person or the tagalong was not 
a regular traveler, you might not know their name? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068672

LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Or you might just be given their first name? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Not be given a name at all? 
A. Correct. 
Q. So that's an example of where you might put one female, one 
male? 
A. That is correct, yes. 
Q. Now, the manifest, you testified that you kept the 
manifest; right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And then eventually you gave them to the New York office? 
A. Correct. 
Q. I think you sent them, if I recall, to someone named 
in New York; is that right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. You did not send them to Ghislaine, though; isn't that 
right? 
A. No, they went to the main office, whether it be 
haven't heard that name in a long time. That was a memory 
refreshed. Thank you. 
Q. My pleasure. So you have no reason to believe that 
Ghislaine was reviewing these manifests; right? 
A. No, Ms. Maxwell had nothing to do with the passenger 
manifests. 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068673

212 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. So from your perspective, you had no reason to believe that 
Ghislaine would have known which passengers were on the flights 
that she didn't fly on herself? 
A. Correct. 
Q. I want to talk to you about a few specific flights. 
think you mentioned in your testimony a place called 
Interlochen; is that right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Interlochen is, I think you recall, an arts center; is that 
right? 
A. Yes, correct. 
Q. It hosts an arts camp in the summer for musicians and 
singers and actors and other types of artists; is that right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. And generally, in this summer camp, these artists, 
musicians, and singers are in high school; is that right? 
A. I didn't know where they -- I knew it was just an upcoming 
school for talented, I guess, children, because I would take it 
they're more on the younger side than older. 
Q. Understood. Are you aware that Epstein himself attended 
the Interlochen Summer Arts Camp when he was a young man? 
A. I did not. 
Q. Interlochen is located in Michigan? 
A. Correct. 
Q. And to get to Interlochen, you said you had to fly into 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068674

213 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Traverse City, Michigan? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. That's the closest airport? 
A. That is closest. 
Q. And in the 1990s, you flew into Traverse City at least once 
a year or maybe twice a year in the summer months, you recall; 
right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Do you recall any of the passengers on those flights? 
A. I do not. 
Q. Isn't it true that Itzhak Perlman flew on some of those 
flights? 
A. As you said, it just dawned on me, yes, Itzhak Perlman did 
fly on some of those flights, correct. 
Q. Itzhak Perlman is a world famous violinist? 
A. Yes. 
Q. It's fair to say that Epstein went to Interlochen almost 
every summer in the 1990s; isn't that right? 
A. He went there often in the '90s, but like you, said we are 
going back a ways. Yes, correct. 
Q. You recall this being in the summer months? 
A. Summer months, yes. 
Q. These flights typically took place in August, didn't they? 
A. I don't know the exact month, but it was warm. 
Q. Let me see if I can show you something to refresh your 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068675

214 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
recollection again. If we could pull up 3527-007 at page 2 
just for the Court, the deputy, and the witness, please. We'll 
direct your attention, Mr. 
, from the bottom if you 
count up six or seven lines, if you look at those entries right 
there. 
A. Yes. 
Q. Okay. And you can look to the left-hand side, as well, in 
terms of the date. 
A. Yes. 
Q. Does that refresh your recollection about flying in the 
month of August to Interlochen? 
A. Sure it does, yeah. This certainly would be a trip that we 
would do. I recognize the identifiers. So it would be in the 
trip that we would do during that timeframe, yes. 
Q. So, you recall, I believe, right, that Epstein eventually 
had a cabin at Interlochen; isn't that right? 
A. That is correct. 
Q. So he would be going there at the end of the summers to 
stay in his cabin and see the performances at the end of the 
Interlochen Summer Camp; isn't that right? 
A. It was my understanding, which it could have been hearsay 
information, that I thought the cabin was bought or built for 
Itzhak Perlman, but that was just a rumor I heard, but I don't 
know whether or not Mr. Epstein actually stayed in the cabin or 
he donated it to the Interlochen School. I don't know a whole 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068676

215 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
lot of facts on it, just sheer of what I know, what I remember. 
Q. But on those trips, Ghislaine wasn't with him every time he 
went, was she? 
A. I don't remember whether she was or not. I know 
Mr. Epstein was because he always traveled on the aircraft. 
Q. Let's take a look at that same document again to see if I 
can refresh your recollection. One moment. 
A. Sure. 
Q. I'll call up that same page if I could, 3527-007 at page 2, 
just for the Court, the deputy, and the witness. We'll look at 
the same entries as you did before, Mr. 
A. Okay. 
THE COURT: Describe those, please. 
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry. It's the sixth and seventh 
entries up from the bottom. 
Q. These are the ones we were looking at before; isn't that 
right, Mr. 
A. That's correct. 
Q. And if you look there, there is some indications of the 
passengers? 
A. Yes, I see that. 
Q. And does that refresh your recollection about whether or 
not there were flights to Interlochen that Ms. Maxwell did not 
fly on? 
A. I mean, it appears that way. Obviously this isn't my 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068677

216 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
document, but I don't see Ms. Maxwell's name on there. It's 
just --
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, objection. 
THE COURT: Sustained. I'll have the jury disregarded 
observations of the document that are not in evidence other 
than to refresh his recollection, which we've moved beyond. 
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. That's fine. 
Thank you, Mr. 
. We can take that down. 
BY MR. EVERDELL: 
Q. Mr. 
, I think you also flew Mr. Epstein a number of 
times to Columbus, Ohio; isn't that right? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Columbus, Ohio is where Les Wexner lives? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Les Wexner is the billionaire owner of the Limited? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. That's the clothing company? 
A. Yes. 
Q. It owns Victoria's Secret and Abercrombie & Fitch, among 
other companies? 
A. That's correct, yes. 
Q. And Les Wexner was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein's? 
A. I believe they were friends. 
Q. He was one of Epstein's clients, wasn't he? 
A. To my knowledge, Mr. Epstein would call him a client, yes. 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068678

217 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. And Epstein had a home and an office in Columbus, Ohio 
where Les Wexner's home was; isn't that right? 
A. That is correct. 
Q. So he had a few reasons to go to Columbus, Ohio? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Now, you were asked a few questions by the government about 
a woman we are referring to as 
A. Yes. 
Q. Do you recall that? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Just to be clear, 
is not her real name; right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. But you do know what her real name is? 
A. Yes. 
Q. It's been shown to you? 
A. That's correct. 
Q. Now, you recall seeing 
on Epstein's plane on one 
occasion; is that right? 
A. One occasion for sure at the time that I had met her. 
Q. That's the only time you actually have a recollection? 
A. That I have a recollection of, correct. 
Q. And you recall this I think being in the 1990s; right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Now you said, I believe, that you remember meeting her; is 
that right? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068679

218 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. Yes. 
Q. And that she was a singer; right? 
A. Yes. That's the way Mr. Epstein introduced her as. 
Q. And you said that I think she had striking blue eyes; is 
that right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. You'll forgive the question, Mr. 
, but I think you 
also remembered that at the time you saw her, you remembered 
she had large breasts; isn't that right? 
A. She was a mature woman, in my opinion. 
Q. Well, she looked to you like she was in her 20s, as we said 
before? 
A. Sure, yes. 
Q. Now, you remember that this meeting took place I think you 
said in Palm Beach? 
A. It was on the ramp in West Palm Beach, correct. 
Q. Now, it was sometimes the case that Epstein would invite 
people onto the plane before takeoff to show them the plane; 
isn't that right? 
A. Correct. 
Q. And sometimes Epstein brought them into the cockpit to meet 
the pilots? 
A. That's correct, yes. 
Q. And these people didn't always fly on the planes; isn't 
that right? 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068680

219 
LBUCmax3 
- cross 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. That's correct. He would bring passengers on just to show 
them the interior and the cockpit, correct. 
Q. Sometimes he would show them around, they would look 
around, maybe meet the pilots, and then leave before takeoff? 
A. That's correct, yes. 
Q. Sitting here today, you don't know whether the woman you 
met, 
, actually flew on that flight that you recall meeting 
her in the plane? 
A. I wouldn't be able to swear that she actually flew on it. 
I know I met her in the cockpit. 
Q. And you don't remember where that flight was going? 
A. No, I don't. 
Q. And you don't remember anybody else who was on that flight? 
A. I do not. 
Q. And again, you don't recall seeing 
specifically, 
seeing 
on the plane or any plane at any other time except 
that one time in Palm Beach that you recall? 
A. I can't visualize her sitting in the passenger compartment 
like I would, say, president Clinton. It was so long ago, but 
to answer your question, I can't visually see her sitting in 
the -- I see her standing in between the two pilot seats. 
That's my recollection of her. 
Q. On that one occasion? 
A. On that one occasion, yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you met, I believe, with the government on several 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
EFTA00068681