Epstein Files

Page 1 THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY x INTERVIEW OF R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA : x Washington, D.C. Friday, October 18, 2019 Interview of: R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the United States Department of Justice in the above-ent...

Page 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Department of Justice: Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530 On Behalf of the Witness: GORDON D. TODD, ESQ. T.J. HERRON, ESQ Sidley Austin LLP 1501 K Street Northwest Washington, D.C. 20005 EFTA00009230

Page 1 THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY x INTERVIEW OF R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA : x Washington, D.C. Friday, October 18, 2019 Interview of: R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the United States Department of Justice in the above-ent...

Page PROCEEDINGS 2 Whereupon, 3 R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY MS. Q So, would you tell us your name, please? A Rene Alexander Acosta. Q And Mr. Acosta, you're accompanied by your 11 attorney, G...

Page 4 1 the Civil Rights Division at the time that you were the AAG 2 heading that division, and I believe had an occasion to 3 briefly meet you in connection with a matter. 4 THE WITNESS: Could I ask what section? 5 MR. I was in the special litigation 6 section. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 8 MR. : An...

Page 5 1 government did violate the CVRA, or Crime Victims' Rights Act 2 when it entered into the MPA without first providing the 3 victims with notice and a reasonable right to confer with the 4 government. 5 You are a subject of the OPR investigation, that 6 is, one of -- somebody whose conduct is...

Page 6 1 A That -- that is the term used in the e-mail. I 2 think I addressed that in my -- I believe Mr. Todd addressed 3 that in the letter that was sent to -- 4 Q All right. 5 A -- OPR. 6 Q All right. Thank you. So, we recognize that 7 you're not longer with the Department of Justice -- 8 A Right...

Page 7 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- you? 3 A Yes, I have. 4 Q And will you now under oath subscribe to that 5 response as if you had submitted to it yourself? 6 A So, Mr. Todd spoke to me and conveyed the 7 investigation that I provide him. I believe he conveyed that 8 information accurately, and the statements ...

Page 8 1 errors that are in the documents themselves, because we want 2 to make sure the entire record -- 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q -- is correct. Also, there's been an enormous 5 amount of publicity about the Epstein case, particularly this 6 year, including about the events and decisions made back in 7 2006...

Page 9 1 A Yeah. 2 Q -- our matter. So, Mr. Acosta, your professional 3 background is a matter of public record. I have a couple of 4 questions. By what state bar are you currently licensed? 5 A So, I am inactive in I believe inactive in 6 Pennsylvania and also in D.C. 7 Q All right, and not in Flor...

Page 10 1 A Most likely -- I can -- I can speculate. I don't 2 know as a fact. Mostly likely active in D.C. 3 Q Mm-hmm. 4 A And inactive in Pennsylvania. 5 Q Okay, but likely active somewhere, correct? 6 A Yes. Yes, I think that's a requirement. 7 Q Yes, that is a -- 8 A And so -- 9 Q -- requirement...

Page 11 1 the Attorney General. The chief judge has appointing 2 authority. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And you'd have to go back and confirm whether it 5 was either an AG designation or the chief judge -- 6 Q All right. 7 A -- which is different than presidential. 8 Q And I understand, and again, I would appreci...

Page 12 1 that just ten years back, but even further back. I was 2 interim for a sufficiently long period of time that -- that 3 by the time the change in status took place, I would 4 speculate that I was, in my mind, the, you know, acting as 5 U.S. Attorney whether you have an adjunctive interim, o...

Page 13 1 Q All right. 2 A -- my thinking. 3 Q You had not served as a -- as a prosecutor before, 4 and had -- didn't have direct criminal experience is my 5 understanding. 6 A The -- that is correct. I had supervised -- civil 7 rights, for example, had supervised criminal prosecutions, 8 but I had ...

Page 14 1 A -- as one big -- one big area, and we had one of 2 the largest out of our -- the largest healthcare fraud 3 initiative. You know, we focused quite a bit on gun 4 violence, and we did a great job on that, and it's one of 5 those jobs where people feel very good about what they do, 6 and i...

Page 15 1 A -- those are never fun. 2 Q MM-hmm. So, we talked about the personnel -- high 3 level personnel changes you made sort of after your first 4 year there. I= had, we understand, been functioning 5 de facto as a first assistant while IS was not. 6 He -- we understand had been first assistant...

a e 1 1 Q We can verify that. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Yes. What was your assessment of His 4 capabilities, his judgement, and his working relationship 5 with you on a day to day basis? 6 A Outstanding. He had been in the office for 7 decades. He was respected by everyone. He had a good tone 8 to him. He was s...

Page 17 1 A -- kind of relationship. 2 Q All right, and given that he had had experience 3 throughout his career at the department in the criminal arena 4 and you had not, to what extent would you rely on him, among 5 others, for guidance, perspective, information, and so on? 6 A I named him first a...

Page 18 1 Q As long as we make that distinction -- 2 A Right. 3 Q -- both are helpful. 4 A Right, and so -- so, whether it's a recollection or 5 a construction after the fact, I can't can't say, but 6 you know, I -- I thought that one of the helpful factors with 7 is he had spent a lot of time -- an...

Page 19 1 Q All right. What was your assessment of 2 sort of working style, and particularly working 3 with you? 4 A You know, again, positive. You know, we didn't -- 5 I didn't see him as often as Mr. , but -- 6 Q He -- was he located on the same floor? 7 A He was located on the same floor, but not...

Page 20 1 A Sure. That's why I said in a typical -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A It's difficult to sort of recreate the 4 interactions, but he certainly could come to me directly, and 5 in some cases, I would say probably would. 6 Q Again, it being a large office with several 7 physical locations, and we understan...

Page 21 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q -- inquiry into -- 3 A Right. 4 Q -- your style, or would you have everybody S together, and talk about it, or would you rely on your most 6 immediate subordinates to be briefing you? How -- which one 7 of those -- A So -- 9 Q -- kinds of -- 10 A So -- 11 Q -- approaches -- 1...

Page 22 1 Q Yeah. 2 A I don't want to say that was the case every single 3 time, but that was -- was typical. 4 Q All right, and to what extent did you go out and 5 about to encounter the line attorneys, or example? Was that 6 something that you were able to do and wanted to do? 7 A Yes, and yes, an...

Page 23 1 you to the U.S. Attorney's Office, and that -- we know that 2 under your tenure, the U.S. Attorney's Office had many 3 successful prosecutions involving conduct ranging from 4 internet child pornography -- 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q -- to international sex tourism -- 7 A Correct. 8 Q -- victimizing c...

Page 24 1 dedicated and not part of the usual major crimes group. So, 2 it wasn't exclusively -- I -- your question may have implied 3 it was exclusively for sex crimes, and it -- 4 Q Oh, no. 5 A -- and it wasn't -- yeah. 6 Q No, I understand it was not. 7 A Right. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And so, I thought it...

Page 25 1 A So, if by nitty-gritty you mean seconding myself to 2 a trial team the answer would be no. 3 Q All right. 4 A There are a number of cases that I recall being 5 briefed on and talking about, but -- 6 But at that high level? 7 A Correct. 8 All right. The department set up in 2006 a PSC 9 p...

Page 26 1 Q Her -- your view of 2 A Right. 3 Q -- her capabilities, her judgement 4 A Right. 5 Q her acumen, her knowledge of the law. 6 A I think she was a good, strong, professional AUSA. 7 I mean -- 8 Q Do you have any -- did you have any negative -- you 9 know, anything less than fully positive ...

Page 27 1 A So, less so, only because of geographic distance. 2 Q Mt-hmm. 3 A I would also say he was a respected professional. 4 He had a good reputation. He went on to be chief of staff 5 here at the -- at the criminal division, which I think speaks 6 to how he was viewed within the department. 7 ...

Page 28 1 just jump in on the notion of refresh your recollection, 2 which is -- of course has a very specific legal meaning, and 3 I think to assert that Mr. Acosta's recollection has been 4 refreshed generally probably overstates it. It's really a 5 document by document, issue by issue thing. So, ...

Page 29 MR. HERRON: -- the cleanest record. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. So, three parts. How did it 3 come into the office? How did -- I'm sorry -- 4 BY MS. 5 Q How was -- how did it come in? 6 A Right. Q How was it assessed for prosecution -- 8 A Right. Q -- and then how and -- how and why the decision wa...

Page 30 1 state attorney had negotiated a plea, and that the reason 2 that we looked at it was that that plea was going to be -- 3 that there had been an initial charge that wasn't pursued, 4 and that required jail time and registration, and that the S plea that was going to be taken was a charge th...

Page 31 1 Q How and why the disposition. 2 A So, my general recollection is the view was that if 3 the state had followed through on an original charge -- I 4 don't recall which -- that called for jail time and that 5 called for registration, that the local police or whoever 6 brought it would not h...

PaGe the case and why resolve it, but why with a two year state 2 plea? What's the -- 3 A And so -- 4 -- overview? 5 A And so my general recollection is -- my 6 understanding -- if I was asked, what is the best 7 understanding that I have of why two years, is that is what 8 would have been obtained ...

Page 33 1 Q -- some of that. 2 A -- I noticed. 3 Q And by the way, my colleagues, we're all in this 4 boat together. So, they're going to feel free to -- 5 A I know. 6 Q -- chime in -- 7 A Yeah. 8 Q as they see fit. So, the first thing going -- 9 going to the intake of the case, we know from the rec...

Page 34 1 indicted -- arrested and indicted by the state. Do you 2 recall anything about that original briefing from 3 4 A I -- I don't. 5 Q All right. Did you know at the time that -- at the 6 time she briefed you -- 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q -- which is prior to Exhibit 1, did you know who 9 Epstein was? 10...

Page 35 1 petite policy. 2 Q But this -- what -- Exhibit No. 1 -- 3 A Right. 4 Q -- does not make it clear to you that this case 5 involved allegations that Jeffrey Epstein had been enticing, 6 coercing, whatever verb you want to use, young, underage 7 females -- we will for the record call them gir...

Page 36 1 A I certainly had an understanding of the general 2 facts of the case early on. I can't speak to whether it was 3 mid-2006 versus late 2006 versus 2007, but -- 4 Q Mm-hmm. 5 A -- early on, I certainly had an understanding that 6 it was a case that involved, you know, a billionaire who was ...

Page 37 1 Q And do you know -- oh, do you know what he meant by 2 it being leaked to Epstein by the state -- by Barry -- Barry 3 Krischer, the then State Attorney? 4 A So -- so, based on the context -- 5 Q Mm-hmm. 6 A -- what I would assume is that if the state 7 attorney is cutting this kind of dea...

Page 38 1 were cases he could have brought that he chose not to bring. 2 Q Right. So, is it -- can I -- am I accurate in 3 inferring from that that you didn't regard him as a 4 particularly hard charging prosecutor? 5 A So, I -- with any state attorney, I hesitate to 6 sort of paint broad brush stro...

Page 39 1 appropriate -- appropriate to approach Barry Krischer and 2 give him a heads up as to where the U.S. Attorney's Office 3 might go, presumably -- 4 A Right. 5 Q -- with this case? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Why would you want to extend that difference to 8 him? Why would it matter? 9 A A colleague in...

Page 40 1 heard about the Epstein investigation, I spoke with 2 about it. was not here." 3 said that she would back me up on the case, 4 but I knew what has happened to the state prosecution can 5 happen to the federal prosecution if the U.S. Attorney's 6 Office isn't on board. So, I spoke with abou...

Page 41 1 but there's a case, and they want to know, should we spend 2 our time on this? And the answer is it seems reasonable. 3 Sure. 4 Q Okay, and do you -- do you recall making that 5 explicit to her? 6 A I -- I don't, and -- and it wouldn't have been my 7 practice to -- to sort of make it expli...

Page 42 1 A It was my way of narrowing an answer so I didn't 2 spend the time to go through every office and every division. 3 For the most part, as I sit here, I'm sort of running through 4 each office. I don't recall any, and -- and if I could, 5 based on this -- on Exhibit 2, I'm not sure that sh...

Page 43 1 A So, I know that based on review of the 2 correspondence, I may have known that then. I did not 3 independently recall that. 4 Q That being Operation Leap Year? 5 A Correct. 6 Q All right, and do you know where that comes from? 7 A I have -- well, I mean, other than February 20 -- 8 yeah,...

Page 44 1 my management staff -- 2 Q Right. 3 A -- to pursue it. It wouldn't be a, here are all 4 the facts associated with this case, just heads up. There is 5 a high profile case involving a very wealthy man abusing 6 young women, a state attorney is prosecuting, but you know, 7 there's dissatisfa...

Page 45 1 Q -- for the victims who at the time of the conduct 2 were minors, and women, for those who were not, even though 3 the girls at a later time became age of -- 4 A Fair. 5 Q -- majority. 6 A Fair. 7 Q Okay. So, here, we're really talking about the 8 girls -- 9 A Okay. 10 Q -- who were victi...

Page 46 1 Q And were you aware that the individual in this 2 case, Epstein, also had homes in other districts, and that 3 there were -- it was an interstate activity on his part, the 4 interstate travel and so on? 5 A 6 MR. HERRON: I'm sorry, let me just -- we're still 7 in the original intake time ...

Page 47 1 A 2 Q -- to proceed with it. 3 A I ask, because I recall an e-mail, and I don't know 4 what the time would have been, where she's coming to Miami, 5 and says, why don't you stop by my office first? 6 Q Right. 7 A And -- and -- and I keep -- I would -- I would 8 speculate that, why don't yo...

Page 48 1 A I accept that I was made aware of the matter. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I can't say how or in what context or to what 4 degree of detail. 5 Q Or by whom? 6 A Or by whom. I knew the matter -- it's easier to 7 recollect at least for me what I knew as opposed to who told 8 me what. 9 Q All right. All r...

Page 49 1 the -- the law, and we'll probably get into that. I alluded 2 to that earlier in the overview. I don't know if that would 3 have been developed this early on, but -- but that's not a 4 function of his wealth. That's a function of the fact 5 pattern. 6 Q Right. Right. Okay. So, as you menti...

Page 50 1 presume that what they're doing is correct, even if we don't 2 like the outcome, except in the most unusual of 3 circumstances. 4 Q And what kinds of -- well, so, the petite policy 5 exists because there's a recognition that there are cases 6 that are appropriately pursued. I mean, you wer...

Page 51 1 you don't apply for it if you think it's the right thing to 2 do. 3 So, for example, in the UBS case, which was one of 4 our big tax, you know, prosecutions, we asked for a Bank of 5 Nova Scotia -- 6 Q ME-hum. 7 A -- authorization to the Bank of Nova Scotia 8 subpoena, and I didn't think M...

Page 52 1 One is trying to predict what folks in this 2 building are going to think. Another one is trying to 3 predict -- another one is saying, what do we in Miami think, 4 and then let main justice figure it out. Q And which is the approach you typically took? 6 A And my point is the approach tha...

Page 53 1 policy grounds, and I'm pushing back a little bit, because I 2 don't think it's, it's part or it's not, as opposed to when 3 you look at a case, there are all sorts of factors, and it is 4 a factor in how you think of a matter going forward. BY MS. Q If you had those petite policy concerns...

Page 54 1 Q Do you know why she was not actively participating 2 in this chain of command? 3 A I noticed that in the correspondence, and I 4 couldn't speak to that. 5 Q All right. 6 A But the -- but it goes to the point that if you look at the -- she reported to , who reported to 8 who reported to w...

Page 55 1 Q Do you recall ever doing that in connection with 2 this case? 3 A I -- I don't recall the specific briefings or who I 4 talked to. I'm just saying as a general matter that there 5 are folks on my -- on the eighth floor that were in 6 management that I would often just walk down the hall,...

Page 56 1 confusing to begin with -- notifies. = that -- of a -- of 2 a particular conversation he had with one of the defense 3 attorneys. At this point, what I want to do is draw your 4 attention to the -- the comment, and his response, and we're 5 looking at page -- 6 A Page -- 7 Q -- three. 8 A ...

Page 57 1 acknowledged that we needed to do work to 2 collect the evidence establishing a federal nexus, and I 3 noted the time and month," -- that -- I'm sorry, "I noted the 4 time and money that would be required for an investigation. 5 I said I was willing to invest time and the FBI was willing 6...

Page 58 1 for the line AUSA? What's her job then? 2 A So, the job would then be to go back and 3 investigate, and develop facts and report back. 4 Q And if she developed enough facts, and supportive 5 law to present proposed prosecution? 6 A Right. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And so -- so, a lot of times in this ...

Page 59 1 where or, Mr. la I'm sorry, I'm calling -- I'm 2 using first names. 3 Q Its' all right. 4 A So, I'm going to just start -- 4 This is an informal interview. 6 A I'm going to just start using first names. I don't 7 mean that disrespectfully -- where, you know, Illlisays, you 8 know, because ...

federal case against Epstein brought on a fairly -- on a 2 quick basis? 3 A So, I can't speak to that, and -- and can I 4 I ask, based on your record, was that that the -- was that 5 the state indictment target date, or was that -- 6 Q He already -- A -- a federal -- B Q -- Epstein had already been ...

Page 61 1 A Correct. 2 Q -- all of the issues that we've been discussing, 3 but the question is, do you know why there was some urgency? 4 A I haven't the slightest idea. When was it -- when 5 was it initially brought to the office? 6 Q It was brought to the office in May of -- 7 A Right. 8 Q -- 200...

Page 62 1 that your recollection of hove operated? Hard charging? 2 A Yeah. I'd say -- so, a lot of really good 3 prosecutors are hard charging. That's -- 4 Q All right. 5 A -- that's part of the job description. 6 Q Okay. 7 A And so, yes. 8 Q Okay. Did -- so, in the child sex offender 9 context, ar...

Page 63 1 A I don't. 2 Q Did you think that it was appropriate for a line 3 AUSA to be shooting e-mails updating on a case that was under 4 investigation directly to you and your first assistant? 5 A It was unusual, and -- and so, so, did I think of 6 a -- look, I can't reconstruct what I would have...

Page 64 1 A I tended not to -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- do that. 4 BY 5 Q Would she have sent this to you -- something 6 unusual, if she thought that this was a case that you wanted 7 to be involved in? 8 A Even in -- even in those, I tried to be, as a 9 general matter, fairly sensitive to the chain, becaus...

Page 65 1 to get things done. 2 BY MS. 3 Q Did you have any reason to believe during this 4 investigative phase that ME was not pursuing 5 this case -- this investigation adequately, appropriately, 6 and fully? 7 A No, I did not. 8 Q Did you -- 9 A Not to my recollection. 10 Q Did you feel that she ...

Page 66 1 could use their resources to look at other aspects of 2 Epstein's activities? 3 A So, I -- so, I think it's important to take a step 4 back, and I was aware of any number of cases going on in the office, and based on what that stage of case was at, I would 6 get more involved for a time. 7...

Page 67 1 A Right. 2 Q -- should proceed? 3 A So, I don't have a specific recollection of who 4 reached out at what time. I would assume as a general matter that defense counsel -- defense counsel were clearly involved 6 before the case came to the office. and so, I would assume 7 that defense couns...

Page 68 1 Q And you view it as an appropriate part of the 2 process? Do you? 3 A I think AUSAs need to have discretion to meet with 4 defense counsel, and defense counsel certainly should be able 5 to present perspectives. 6 Q There is an outlook -- this is Exhibit 4, and this 7 is something -- 8 Ok...

Page 69 1 with him on the Epstein matter -- 2 A I don't. 3 Q -- at this time? Okay. So, I want to -- 4 A And let me note, I think most of the correspondence 5 was from other attorneys and not him. And so, yeah. 6 Q All right. Are you -- are you okay? Do you want 7 to take a short break, or -- 8 A Ye...

Page 70 1 , and you. Was that a typical way for an indictment 2 and proposed prosecution? The memo to come? 3 A To my recollection, it was not, and I don't recall 4 that happening in other cases. I'm trying -- I'm hesitating, 5 just because I'm trying to think through if there's -- I 6 don't have an...

Page 71 1 recommendation i.e., we are a long way off." So, 2 did you have any idea why the FBI was planning a press 3 conference on Epstein? 4 A I don't -- I don't know if I did. I don't recall 5 if I did. 6 Q Was it -- how typical was it for the FBI to plan a 7 press conference on an indicted -- on...

Page 72 1 A -- that level of detail. 2 Q -- as you -- as you look at your own words, does 3 that suggest to you that you were unaware as of that moment 4 that she'd actually submitted her pros memo? 5 A That suggests that I would not have been aware that 6 she submitted it. If -- you know, because i...

Page 73 1 . It needs to be scrubbed. You know, this could be -- 2 this ain't happening next week. 3 Q All right, but in your -- do you have any reason to 4 believe that whatever that process is that you were 5 describing would be any -- any different in any particular 6 measure in this case from the...

Page 74 1 items in Operation Leap Year, and that's a summary of the 2 indictment, and evidence regarding the individual victims. 3 Okay? So, as of May 11, you had before you the pros memo, 4 the proposed indictment, and this substantial amount of 5 additional -- 6 A Right. 7 Q -- information. Did yo...

Page 75 1 voluminous documents like this and go through them yourself, 2 or did you rely on your senior staff? 3 A I would typically rely on senior staff. They -- 4 they're the experienced ones that have seen these matters 5 before. They would go through it. We'd sit down. We'd talk 6 about the issu...

Page 76 1 A It would have been my practice based on this to go 2 back and discuss it, and so based on my practiced, I would 3 have gone back and likely discussed it. I doubt I would have 4 printed this out at whatever hotel I was at. 5 Q But even when you got back to the office, would you 6 have had...

Page 77 1 case weren't about the sordid details of what happened, 2 because we believed he did what he did. The concerns were 3 about some of the legal issues around it, and some of the 4 issues in terms of testimony. 5 Q Of the victims? 6 A Of the victims. 7 Q All right. On page -- 8 A And I say th...

Page 78 1 them from pursuing a prosecution, and we have every reason to 2 believe and no reason not to believe that that's what is 3 being referred to. Do you recall reviewing substantial 4 submissions from defense counsel at this time attacking in 5 very granular detail -- 6 Mm-hmm. 7 Q -- the cred...

Page 79 1 Q And was there any particular -- if We EMI was 2 working with you directly on reporting 3 A Right. 4 Q -- on his assessment of this case, was there any 5 reason for Mi to be involved? 6 A I might bounce ideas off him. I mean, he was he 7 was right across, so we worked closely, but you kno...

Page ".7;.. 2 A So, I can't -- well, I can't tell you from 3 recollection what the basis is. I can -- I can speculate 4 that the materials being transmitted Friday morning -- oh, I 5 guess it was -- yeah, so -- 6 Q The 11th. A Yeah. Q Friday. 9 A So, Friday morning, it hasn't been reviewed by 10 any...

Page 81 1 obviously I did. As a practice matter, this is something 2 that would have gone through the chain, and that we would 3 have then discussed. 4 Q But why up at your level? Is it because it is, as 5 says, "Obviously a very significant case?" 6 A So, at my level, not only because of the facts,...

Page 82 1 implicated that, and it implicated the -- what is local and 2 what is federal. 3 Q All right. So, in the first, you're talking -- in 4 the first category, you're talking about the individual 5 charges that had been -- that were being proposed, which 6 included both trafficking and coercion...

Page 83 1 issues that -- 2 A Issues that -- 3 -- in your mind 4 A -- we would have -- 5 Q -- had to be resolved. 6 A -- wanted to talk through. 7 Q All right. Okay. At that point, did you -- to 8 your recollection, have any doubt that some form of 9 indictment or charging instrument against Epstein ...

Page 84 1 So, writ large, I thought throughout it was very 2 important that something happen. There were these concerns 3 all along. I can speculate that this is just a reflection of 4 those continuing concerns. 5 Q As expressed by you to in the ordinary course? 7 A As developed as a group throughou...

Page 85 1 Q -- receiving the pros memo, and you ask him, have 2 you read the memo? And curious why you ask MI 3 rather than 4 A I don't recall. I can -- I can speculate, and I 5 have two thoughts that I'll speculate. One is, ME her 6 direct supervisor. 7 Q Mm-hmm. 8 A And I might be thinking -- 9 Q ...

Page 86 1 whether the statute's covered the conduct, and whether the 2 conduct is the type we should charge. I think the answer to 3 both is yes, although there is some risk on some of the 4 statutes." He proposes that the office start with a 5 complaint, which is not unusual, is it? 6 A It -- it ha...

Page 87 1 A So -- so, as a typical matter, once there's an 2 indictment, the -- a pre-indictment -- well, by definition, a 3 pre-indictment resolution comes off the table, but in cases 4 of this nature, the resolutions tend to happen before 5 indictment, because once the indictment is done, at least...

Page 88 1 case, but in other cases, it is -- it was rare that the 2 office after an -- in cases like this, after a full charge 3 was done, that that substantive counts were dismissed. So, 4 for example, in the public corruption cases that I referenced 5 earlier out of Palm Beach, those were all nego...

Page 89 1 A It -- it was in particularly the Palm Beach office 2 with other high profile cases that were there at the time. 3 Q Do you recall any case in which a judge in an 4 indicted case refused to dismiss counts when the 5 government -- 6 A Yeah. 7 Q -- in an indictment under those circumstances...

Page 9C 1 there is -- there -- you can -- you can -- you can lay out 2 more what you've negotiated. I think later there's a letter 3 from.. that sort of presents the same perspective. 4 Q All right. In -- 5 MS. One moment? 6 MS. : Go ahead. THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 BY MS. a: Q You said in cases of this ...

Page 91 1 made it a high profile case. I don't think it -- I don't 2 think it was his wealth. I think it was all of the above. 3 This was a matter that the state attorney had been ready to 4 charge that the federal government is now jumping into and S saying, by its presence, that the state did not ...

Page 92 1 little bit on that. 2 Saying what are your thoughts? Have you read it, 3 what are your thoughts? And he says, yes, we can talk next 4 week, my current thoughts are is very different than, 5 we've sat down, we've discussed this, this is my now informed 6 position. 7 Q Understood, and I -- I...

Page 93 1 the child exploitation and obscenities section 2 A Right. 3 Q in the criminal division here, correct? Had you 4 encountered him while you were in this building also? 5 A Most likely. I knew of him enough that the 6 correspondence shows -- and I recall asking to involve him 7 pretty early o...

Page 94 1 It's terrific. He says did a terrific job, 2 and he says, "we agree with her legal analysis. Her charging 3 decisions are legally sound," and then goes 4 through the different statutes, and concludes that they are 5 all properly charged, and that although there are some 6 issues, legally, ...

Page 95 1 A Sure, I would have. I mean, I -- I respected MI, 2 and clearly wanted him to be part of the team, and later 3 invited him down, and so, yes. 4 Q Okay. All right. Do you know why they wouldn't have shared -- your people wouldn't have shared this with 6 you? A I can't -- I don't know. 8 Q ...

Page 96 1 pre-indictment resolution. 2 And so, here, you havellIII, based on this Exhibit 3 7, saying, we need to get on the same page as to what to 4 charge, pre-indictment resolution, cap him with conspiracy 5 count to make up the attractive. 6 So, a five year cap, something less than five 7 years...

Page 97 1 you don't indict, it's for any number of reasons. If under 2 these circumstances, the choices that are available are you 3 have a case that's been brought in -- taken in from -- 4 A Right. 5 Q -- the state. You can -- you can decline it. Send 6 it back to the state, make it go away, whatev...

Page 98 1 indicting is a -- is something that either happens or doesn't 2 happen. That's all I'm saying. 3 A Sure. 4 Q Okay? So, what I'm getting at is, with respect to 5 the indictment -- so, as you're looking at this case, 6 you're -- it sounds as if you're doing sort of one analytical 7 track, wh...

e , 1 witnesses, was the FBI and the line attorney with the 2 assistance perhaps of the grand jury, taking steps to 3 corroborate -- 4 A Right. 5 Q -- shore up victim witness testimony, find new 6 victims, find additional evidence, and so on? 7 A So -- so, taking that in part is helpful. So, with 8 ...

Page 100 1 combination with the FBI, would be pursuing those matters, 2 and looking to develop the evidence and corroborate, and 3 throughout this process, it would have been my assumption and 4 hope that she was continuing to develop the facts, because 5 that can only help. 6 Q And so as U.S. Attor...