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1 a return flight. And it has different people on it.
2 So I have no reason to believe it's a return flight.
3 Q. Is the last -- the question that I asked
4 you, Mr. Dershowitz, is: Is the last name spelled
5 exactly the same as the last name is spelled in the
6 two photographs I have shown you?
7 A. Let me look. So, on the 20th of
8 November
9 Q. Is the last name --
10 MR. SCOTT: Whoa, whoa
11 BY MR. SCAROLA:
12 Q. -- spelled the same way on both the flight
13 log and the two photographs I have shown you?
14 A. On -- you mean on a flight log that I was
15 not on the flight? Is that right? You're talking
16 about a flight log that I was not on the flight,
17 right?
18 Q. That flight log shows you on multiple
19 flights, does it not?
20 A. It shows me not on that flight. It shows
21 me on a number of flights, but not on that flight.
22 MR. SCOTT: What's the date of the
23 flights?
24 THE WITNESS: The date of that flight
25 is -- looks like November 20th, 2005, more
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1 than three years after left
2 for --
3 BY MR. SCAROLA:
4 Q. Mr. Dershowitz --
5 MR. SCOTT: You're cutting the witness
6 off.
7 MR. SCAROLA: He's not answering my
8 question, Tom.
9 MR. SCOTT: Well --
10 MR. SCAROLA: I want to know whether the
11 last name is spelled the same or it isn't
12 spelled the same on the flight log marked as an
13 exhibit and on the photographs. That's a very
14 direct question. It calls for a very direct
15 yes or no response.
16 And this witness has demonstrated a clear
17 refusal to respond directly to direct
18 questions, which will result, when we resume
19 this deposition, in our requesting that the
20 Court appoint a special master so that this
21 deposition doesn't take two weeks to complete.
22 MR. SCOTT: You know, Mr. Scarola, that's
23 a nice speech and I appreciate it.
24 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
25 MR. SCOTT: I don't agree with your
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1 characterization. And if you recall, months
2 ago I suggested a special master for this
3 deposition, for your clients' depositions and
4 for ' and your response to me
5 was: I'll consider it, I won't pay for it. If
6 your client wants to pay for it -- so basically
7 you blew me off.
8 So, I appreciate you finally come around.
9 And your clients.
10 MR. SCAROLA: Your client's misconduct has
11 clearly convinced me, having now considered it,
12 that it is absolutely necessary.
13 MR. SCOTT: Okay. Now --
14 BY MR. SCAROLA:
15 Q. So now could I get an answer to my
16 question --
17 MR. SCOTT: Now that we have --
18 BY MR. SCAROLA:
19 Q. -- whether the last name on the flight log
20 is spelled exactly the same way as the last name in
21 the photographs?
22 MR. SCOTT: Now that all the lawyers'
23 speeches are done, read the question back and
24 the witness will answer it.
25 MR. SCAROLA: I will repeat the question.
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1 BY MR. SCAROLA:
2 Q. Is the last name on the photograph spelled
3 exactly the same way as the last name on the flight
4 log?
5 A. If you're talking about a flight log that
6 I was not on that flight, the answer is yes.
7 Q. All right. Thank you very much, sir.
8 Now, that flight log also shows you flying
9 repeatedly in the company of a woman named
10 correct?
11 A. I've only seen one reference to on
12 November 17. If you want to show me any other
13 references, I'd be happy to look at them.
14 Q. All right, sir. Thank you.
15 Let's go back to the --
16 MR. SCOTT: Are we done with this exhibit?
17 MR. SCAROLA: We are done with the
18 exhibit.
19 MR. SCOTT: Okay. Then let's collect the
20 exhibits so that we don't have a big -- then
21 we'll turn them over to the court reporter to
22 keep safekeeping.
23 There you go, young lady, don't lose
24 those, don't get them wet. And we'll proceed.
25
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1 BY MR. SCAROLA:
2 Q. Did you state during the same interview,
3 the ■ interview: "She has said that
4 Bill Clinton was with her at an orgy on Jeffrey's
5 island"?
6 A. I did state that, yes.
7 Q. Was that statement intended as fact,
8 opinion, or was it intended as rhetorical hyperbole?
9 MR. SCOTT: Do you understand the
10 question?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 A. It was a statement based on what I
13 believed were the facts at the time I said them.
14 Various newspapers and blogs had placed
15 Bill Clinton on, quote, "orgy island" on -- in the
16 presence of Jeffrey Epstein when there were orgies.
17 And at the time I made that statement, I had a
18 belief that she had accused Bill Clinton of
19 participating or being -- as being a part of or an
20 observer or -- or a witness or a participant in
21 orgies on what was called Jeffrey Epstein's orgy
22 island. That was my state of belief, honest belief
23 at the time I made that statement.
24 BY MR. SCAROLA:
25 Q. Yes, sir. And what I want to know is what
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1 the source of that honest belief was? Identify any
2 source that attributed to the
3 statement that Bill Clinton was with her at an orgy
4 on Jeffrey's island.
5 A. We can provide you about, I think, 20
6 newspaper articles and blogs which certainly raise
7 the implication that Bill Clinton had improperly
8 participated in sexual activities on the island
9 either as an observer or as a participant. The
10 issue was raised on Sean Hannity's program. The
11 headlines in various British media had suggested
12 that.
13 It's my belief that
14 intended to convey that impression when she was
15 trying to sell her story to various media, which she
16 successfully sold her story to in Britain, that she
17 wanted to keep that open as a possibility.
18 And then when I firmly declared, based on
19 my research, that Bill Clinton had almost certainly
20 never been on that island, she then made a firm
21 statement that she -- which was a -- which was a
22 perjurious statement, a firm perjurious statement
23 saying that although Bill Clinton had been with her
24 on the island and had had dinner with her, the
25 perjurious statement was that Bill Clinton had been
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1 on the island with her.
2 The lie was that she described in great
3 detail a dinner with Bill Clinton and two underaged
4 Russian women who were offered to Bill Clinton for
5 sex but that Bill Clinton turned down.
6 So she then put in her affidavit that
7 although -- perjuriously, although she had seen Bill
8 Clinton on that island, she then stated that she had
9 not had sex with Bill Clinton. To my knowledge,
10 that was -- to my knowledge at least, that was the
11 first time she stated that -- that she not had sex
12 with Bill Clinton. She had certainly implied, or at
13 least some of the media had inferred from her
14 statements that she may very well have observed Bill
15 Clinton in a sexually compromising position.
16 So, when I made that statement to Don
17 Lemon, I had a firm belief, based on reading
18 newspaper accounts and blogs, that it was true.
19 Q. Can you identify a single newspaper that
20 attributed to the statement that
21 Bill Clinton was with her at an orgy on Jeffrey's
22 island?
23 A. I think there -- I don't have them in my
24 head right now. But I do recall reading headlines
25 that talked about things like, sex slave places
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1 Clinton on orgy island, things of that kind. I
2 would be happy to provide them for you. I don't
3 have them on the top of my head.
4 Q. There's a big difference between saying
5 that Bill Clinton was on Jeffrey's island and saying
6 that Bill Clinton was at an orgy on Jeffrey's
7 island, isn't there?
8 MR. SCOTT: Objection --
9 BY MR. SCAROLA:
10 Q. Do you recognize a distinction between
11 those statements?
12 MR. SCOTT: Form.
13 A. I don't think that distinction was clearly
14 drawn by the media.
15 BY MR. SCAROLA:
16 Q. I'm asking whether you recognize the
17 distinction?
18 A. Oh, I -- I certainly recognize a
19 distinction.
20 Q. Oh, so
21 A. Let me finish. I certainly recognize a
22 distinction between Bill Clinton being on the
23 island, which I believe she perjuriously put in her
24 affidavit, and Bill Clinton participating actively
25 in an orgy. I also think it's a continuum.
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1 And there is the possibility, which I
2 don't personally believe to be true, that he was on
3 the island. There was the possibility, which I
4 don't believe to be true, that he was on the island
5 when orgies were taking place. There was the
6 possibility that he was on the island and observed
7 an orgy, and there was the possibility that he was
8 on the island and participated in an orgy.
9 Newspapers picked up those stories. I'll
10 give you an example of a newspaper that actually
11 said that that she had placed or that I was on the
12 island and -- that I participated in an orgy along
13 with Stephen Hawkings [sic.), the famous physicist
14 from Cambridge University, that was a newspaper
15 published in the Virgin Islands, which falsely
16 claimed that I was at an orgy with Stephen Hawkings.
17 So, many newspapers were suggesting,
18 implying, and I inferred from reading those
19 newspapers that that's what she had said to the
20 media.
21 If I was wrong about that based on
22 subsequent information, I apologize. But I
23 certainly, at the time I said it, believed it and
24 made the statement in good faith in the belief that
25 it was an honest statement.
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1 Q. Okay. So you now are withdrawing the
2 statement that you made that said
3 that Bill Clinton was with her at an orgy on
4 Jeffrey's island; that was wrong?
5 A. I don't know whether she ever said that.
6 I would not repeat that statement and have not
7 repeated that statement based on her denial. As
8 soon as she denied it, I never again made that
9 statement and would not again make that statement.
10 Q. You --
11 A. But I did reiterate the fact that she
12 committed perjury when she said she was on the
13 island with Bill Clinton.
14 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike the
15 nonresponsive --
16 A. That was the perjurious statement.
17 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike the
18 nonresponsive portions of the answer.
19 BY MR. SCAROLA:
20 Q. You have made a reference during that same
21 ■ interview to this woman, referring to
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Okay. What -- what is a criminal record?
25 A. Well, the way I used the term is that
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1
2
3
4
5 . And it was my
6 information that there was a
7
8 Q. How old was she at the time this alleged
9 offense occurred?
10 A. I don't know.
11
12 . To my knowledge, I -- I recall a case
13 where a 14-year-old boy was sentenced as an adult
14 for --
15 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Scott --
16 A. -- a serious --
17 MR. SCAROLA: -- did my question ask
18 anything about a 14-year-old boy?
19 A. You asked if
20 MR. SCAROLA: Do we really need to listen
21 to this?
22 MR. SCOTT: You're asking questions, my
23 client is providing his response.
24 MR. SCAROLA: No, your client is not
25 responding. Your client is filibustering.
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1 Your client is doing everything he can to avoid
2 giving direct answers to these questions.
3 I would appreciate it if you would take a
4 break, counsel your client that the speeches
5 are not helpful to anyone, and especially not
6 helpful to him.
7 MR. SCOTT: If you want to take a break,
8 I'll take a break and I will advise my client
9 whatever I feel is appropriate, not what you
10 instruct me to do.
11 MR. SCAROLA: Okay. Well, if you think it
12 might help at all in the progress of this
13 deposition, then I do want to take a break. If
14 you don't think taking a break would be
15 helpful, I don't want to take a break.
16 MR. SCOTT: Do you want to take a break or
17 not?
18 THE WITNESS: I'm going to leave it to
19 your judgment. I'm happy to proceed --
20 MR. SCOTT: Okay. I'll be glad to take a
21 break.
22 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
23 MR. SCOTT: I can't say --
24 MR. SCAROLA: Five minutes.
25 MR. SCOTT: -- it will help you or
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1 anything but --
2 MR. SCAROLA: I can understand that you
3 don't -- you don't have that control, but if
4 there's any reasonable --
5 MR. SCOTT: You know, Counsel
6 MR. SCAROLA: -- prospect that it might
7 help, let's give it a try.
8 MR. SCOTT: You know, I really don't
9 appreciate the comments about my abilities as
10 an attorney, like I don't have that control and
11 things of nature. It really is --
12 MR. SCAROLA: I don't have the control
13 either.
14 MR. SCOTT: It's not --
15 MR. SCAROLA: I'm not trying to disparage
16 you at all in any respect. I'm just suggesting
17 that --
18 MR. SCOTT: Okay.
19 MR. SCAROLA: -- there is reason to doubt
20 that it will do any good. But I want to give
21 it a try.
22 MR. SCOTT: Okay. Fine. Thank you.
23 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
25 time is approximately 9:49 a.m.
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1 (Recess was held from 9:49 a.m. until 10:01 a.m.)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record.
3 The time is approximately 10:01 a.m.
4 MR. SCOTT: If you've finished your bagel,
5 we're ready to proceed, I think.
6 MR. SCAROLA: I think we are. I was
7 actually ready to proceed a little bit earlier,
8 but we'll proceed now.
9 BY MR. SCAROLA:
10 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, do you agree with the
11 basic concept that one is presumed to be innocent
12 until proven guilty?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Has
15 t any time, anywhere, at any
16 age?
17 A. I don't know the answer to that question,
18 but I do know that she was
19 and
20
21
22 Q. To the extent that anyone might interpret
23 your comment that was ever
24 , they would be drawing a false
25 conclusion as far as you know, correct?
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1 A. As far as I know, I don't know of her
2 having convicted of any crime. But I do know that
3
4 And I don't think she contested that. I don't think
5 there's any dispute about the fact that
6
7 Q. When did you find out about this alleged
8
9 A. As soon as the false allegation against me
10 was made public, I got call after call after call
11 from people telling me about , about
12 your 22 clients. The calls just kept coming in
13 because there was such outrage at this false
14 allegation being directed against me.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike the
16 unresponsive portion of the answer.
17 BY MR. SCAROLA:
18 Q. You found out as soon as the CVRA
19 complaint was -- the CVRA allegations referencing
20 you were filed; is that correct?
21 A. I didn't say that. I said as soon as they
22 were made public and as soon as the newspapers
23 carried these false stories, I received phone calls
24 and I learned about -- I learned about her encounter
25 with the criminal justice system.
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1 Q. That would certainly have been prior to
2 February 23rd of 2015, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. SCOTT: Are you going back to the
5 exhibit now with the newspapers and
6 MR. SCAROLA: Not yet.
7 MR. SCOTT: Okay.
8
BY MR. SCAROLA:
9 Q. Having reviewed the available airplane
10 flight logs, you are aware that Bill Clinton flew on
11 at least 15 occasions with Jeffrey Epstein on his
12 private plane, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you ever attempted to get flight log
15 information with regard to Former President
16 Clinton's other private airplane travel?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Never made a public records request --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. under the Freedom of Information Act
21 with regard to those records?
22 A. Well, we have made a Freedom of
23 Information request. My -- my attorney in New York,
24 Louis Freeh, the former head of the FBI, has made a
25 FOIA request for all information that would
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1 conclusively prove that Bill Clinton was never on
2 Jeffrey Epstein's island, yes.
3 Q. And you were denied those records,
4 correct?
5 A. No, no, no.
6 Q. Oh, you got them?
7 MR. SCOTT: Well, wait a minute. Let's
8 take it slow. Ask a question.
9 A. As any lawyer knows, FOIA requests take a
10 long, long period of time. So they were neither
11 denied nor were they given to us. They are very
12 much in process.
13 BY MR. SCAROLA:
14 Q. When was
15 A. While we're talking about may I
16 complete -- I want to amend one answer I gave
17 previously.
18 While we're talking about the plane logs,
19 I must say that during the recess, my wife Googled
20 and found out that she was, in fact, •
21 years old in_, at the time she flew on that
22 airplane. So that my characterization of her as
23 about ■ years old is absolutely correct.
24 And the implication that you sought to
25 draw by showing me those pictures was not only
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1 demonstrably false, but you could have easily
2 discovered that the implication you were drawing was
3 demonstrably false by simply taking one second and
4 Googling her name as my wife did.
5 BY MR. SCAROLA:
6 Q. And so at 25 years old, she wasn't a young
7 woman?
8
A. She was not the kind of woman that I was
9 describing as underage. She was a mature, serious,
10 I think I said in my public statements a model. I
11 wasn't aware at the time that see was working for
12 , but Google demonstrates that.
13 And I described her exactly, in exactly the right
14 terms, a serious person.
15 I always saw her dressed when I saw her --
16 I saw her maybe on two or three occasions, dressed
17 appropriately. She was a serious adult worker and I
18 think you insult and demean her when you suggest
19 that anything other than that she was a serious
20 adult when she flew on that airplane.
21 Q. You were asked on the occasion of that
22 same III interview what possible motive
23 the attorneys, Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell, could
24 have had to have identified you in the pleading that
25 was filed in the Crime Victim's Rights Act case.
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1 Do you remember that?
2 A. That's right, yes.
3 Q. And your response was, quote --
4 MR. SCOTT: Here's your transcript if you
5 need to refer to it.
6 BY MR. SCAROLA:
7 Q. -- "They want to be able to challenge the
8 plea agreement and I was one of the lawyers who
9 organized the plea agreement. I got the very good
10 deal for Jeffrey Epstein."
11 Did you make that response?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So, you recognized as of
14 that the reason why the statements were filed in the
15 Crime Victim's Rights Act case was because the Crime
16 Victim's Rights Act case had, as an objective,
17 setting aside the plea agreement that you had
18 negotiated for Jeffrey Epstein, correct?
19 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form. Go ahead if
20 you can answer it.
21 A. There were multiple motives. One of the
22 motives was crassly financial. They were trying to
23 line their pockets with money. But as I also said,
24 and I said this over and over again, they profiled
25 me. They sat down with their client, knowing that
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1 she has a history of lying, knowing that she is
2 easily suggestible, and they basically pressured
3 her, according to my sources, into including me when
4 she didn't want to include me, because by including
5 me, they could make a claim, false as it was, could
6 make a false claim that a person who negotiated the
7 NPA was also criminally involved with her.
8 They also lied -- lied unethically and
9 unprofessionally by saying that I negotiated that
10 provision of the NPA, which gave me, myself, any
11 kind of immunity from prosecution had I had improper
12 sex with , which, of course, I did
13 not. And that was one of the bases on which I was
14 certain that they had engaged in unprofessional,
15 disbarrable and unethical conduct by including that
16 provision, as well as including a provision that
17 Prince Andrew was included because he, Prince
18 Andrew, pressured a United States attorney to try to
19 get a good deal for Jeffrey Epstein.
20 That is so laughable. How any lawyer
21 could put that in a pleading, it doesn't pass even
22 the minimal giggle test. And I'm embarrassed for
23 Professor Cassell that he would have signed his name
24 to a pleading that alleges that Prince Andrew would
25 pressure the United States attorney for the Southern
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