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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL„
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
CONTINUED VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 2
Pages 180 through 333
Friday, October 16, 2015
9:18 a.m. - 12:26 p.m.
Cole Scott & Kissane
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626
BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ.
6
7
8 On behalf of Defendant:
9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33156
11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ.
12 BY: ST ISAFRAG. (Via phone)
13 --and--
14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP
131 Oliver Street
15 Boston, MA 02110
BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ.
16 •
17 --and--
18 WILEY, REIN
17769 K Street NW
19 Washington, DC 20006
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
20
BY: NICOLE A. RICHARDSON, ESQ.
21
22
23
24
25
www.piiiiiiiiiiiiir.com
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1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
3 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC
575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl.
4 New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone)
5
6 On behalf of
7 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200
8 Fort Lauderdale Florida 33301
BY:
9
10
11 ALSO PRESENT:
12 Joni Jones, Utah Attorney General Office
13 Travis Gallagher, Videographer
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 INDEX
2
Examination Page
3
4 VOLUME 2 (Pages 180 - 333)
5 Direct By Mr. Scarola 184
6 Certificate of Oath 330
Certificate of Reporter 331
7 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 332
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 333
8 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
9
No. Page
10
1 Television Interview Transcript 193
11
2 Except from Deposition of Alan M. 193
12 Dershowitz
13 3 Photograph - 8x10 - Color 194
14 4 Photograph - 8x10 - Color 197
15 5 Flight Log Information Sheet 198
16 6 Composite - Flight logs 240
17 7 Composite - Flight manuals 240
18 8 Photograph - 8x10 - Color 305
19 9 Composite - Calendar entries 306
20 10 Composite - Calendar entries 307
21 11 Composite - Calendar entries 307
22 12 Composite - Calendar entries 307
23
24
25
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1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record. This
2 is day two of Alan Dershowitz's deposition.
3 The date is October 16, 2015, and the time is
4 approximately 9:18 a.m.
5 MR. SCAROLA: Would you please reswear the
6 witness.
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your
8
right hand, please?
9 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony
10 you are about to give will be the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 Thereupon:
14 ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
15 having been first duly sworn, was examined and
16 testified as follows:
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. SCAROLA:
19 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, what is rhetorical
20 hyperbole?
21 A. Rhetorical means verbal and hyperbole
22 means exaggeration.
23 Q. Something other than the truth, correct?
24 A. Truth --
25 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form, relevancy.
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1 A. Truth has many, many meanings and is a
2 continuum. The Supreme Court has held that
3 rhetorical hyperbole cannot be the basis, for
4 example, of perjury prosecutions or generally of a
5 defamation prosecution.
6 So it depends on the context. You might
7 just look at the dictionary and probably get a
8 variety of definitions for it.
9 BY MR. SCAROLA:
10 Q. Well, what I'm concerned about,
11 Mr. Dershowitz, is not a dictionary definition. I
12 want to know what your understanding of rhetorical
13 hyperbole is.
14 And do you agree that pursuant to your
15 understanding of rhetorical hyperbole, it is an
16 exaggeration beyond the facts?
17 MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative and
18 compound, three questions.
19 A. No --
20 MR. SCOTT: You can answer.
21 A. -- I would not agree with that definition.
22 BY MR. SCAROLA:
23 Q. Okay. Then define it for us, if you
24 would, please.
25 A. I think I have already.
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1 Q. I'm sorry, I missed the definition. Could
2 you tell us what rhetorical hyperbole is?
3 MR. SCOTT: Objection, repetitious. He's
4 done it.
5 A. Why don't we just read back my answer.
6 BY MR. SCAROLA:
7 Q. Because I didn't understand it, so I would
8 like you to try to give us a direct response to that
9 question if you're able to.
10 A. I will repeat exactly what I said. A
11 rhetorical means verbal and hyperbole means some
12 exaggeration of the facts for political or other
13 reasons, but generally it is truthful in a literal
14 sense but perhaps -- it all depends on context.
15 And if you tell me the context in which I
16 used it, I will be happy to describe what I meant in
17 that context. But I don't think you can really
18 answer a question about what two words put together
19 mean without understanding the context.
20 Q. Okay. Well, we're going to talk about
21 some context.
22 Do you recall having been interviewed on
23 on
24 A. I have no current recollection of --
25 MR. SCOTT: Do you have a copy of the
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1 transcript of the interview? We'd like to see
2 it.
3 MR. SCAROLA: That's exactly what I gave
4 you, the photocopy.
5 MR. SCOTT: We're doing it right now.
6 Maybe we can move on and come back then.
7 MR. SCAROLA: No, I would like to proceed.
8
MR. SCOTT: Then let's stop until I get a
9 copy of it. Because he -- I want --
10 MR. SCAROLA: I don't think that's
11 necessary because your client has told us that
12 he has a superb memory and one of the things I
13 would like to know is what he's able to recall.
14 If he needs to refresh his memory, the
15 transcripts will be here in just a moment, but
16 I don't want to delay going forward.
17 MR. SCOTT: Do you need the transcript to
18 refresh your memory?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I have no memory of
20 what specifically I said on a particular day in
21 a particular interview.
22 MR. SCOTT: Since you have a copy in front
23 of him, why don't you just show him your copy
24 then? Read the -- ask your question and let
25 him read it.
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1 BY MR. SCAROLA:
2 Q. Do you recall having been interviewed on
3 by
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Do you recall having been interviewed on
6 by in early
7 where you spoke about matters that have become the
8 subject of this litigation?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Did you make the following statement
11 during the course of that interview: "As to the
12 airplanes, there are manifests that will prove
13 beyond any doubt that I was never on a private
14 airplane with this woman or any other underage
15 girl"?
16 MR. SCOTT: You need to see the
17 transcript?
18 THE WITNESS: No. No.
19 A. That is a truthful statement. I would
20 repeat it right now. I've reviewed the manifests.
21 First, I know I was never on the airplane
22 with any underage woman. I know that for a fact. I
23 have absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. And
24 the records that I have reviewed confirm that.
25 They have on a number of
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1 airplane flights with Jeffrey Epstein. They have me
2 on a number of flights, none -- let me emphasize,
3 none within the relevant time period, none within
4 the relevant time period. That is, there are no
5 manifests that have me on Jeffrey Epstein's airplane
6 during the time that claims to
7 have -- falsely claims to have had sex with me.
8 So, yes, not only recall making that
9 statement, but I repeat it here today. And it is
10 absolutely true. And it just confirms what I know,
11 and that is that made up the entire
12 story.
13 BY MR. SCAROLA:
14 Q. Your statement --
15 MR. SCOTT: What page are you reading
16 from?
17 MR. SCAROLA: Page 5.
18 Q. Your statement was that you were never on
19 a private airplane with this woman, which I assume
20 was a reference to , correct?
21 A. It is, yes.
22 Q. Or any other underage girl?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. All right. How many times --
25 A. Well, let me be very clear. I have no
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1 idea who was in the front cabin of the airplane with
2 the pilots. Obviously what I intended to say and
3 what I say here now is I never saw an underaged
4 person on an airplane.
5 Now, when I -- when I flew with Jeffrey
6 Epstein to the launch, my recollection is that there
7 may have been a couple on the plane with their child
8 who was going to see the launch. But that was
9 certainly not the context in which I made the
10 statement.
11 I never saw any underage, young person who
12 would be the subject or object of any improper
13 sexual activities. Had I seen Jeffrey Epstein ever
14 in the presence of an underage woman in a context
15 that suggested sexuality, I would have, A, left the
16 scene; B, reported it; and, C, never had any further
17 contact with Jeffrey Epstein.
18 Q. You have also made the statement that you
19 were never on a private airplane with any underage
20 women or any young women, correct?
21 A. The context was underage women in a sexual
22 context. If it was a -- you know, a four-year-old
23 child being carried by her mother, that would not be
24 included in what I intended to say.
25 Q. Your sworn testimony yesterday, according
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1 to the transcription, the official transcription of
2 that testimony, was that, quote:
3 "Let me emphasize that the manifests that
4 do exculpate me do not show me flying with
, they do not show me flying with any young
6 women."
7 That was the testimony you gave under
8 oath. Do you stand by that testimony today?
9 A. The manifests that I saw corroborate my
10 own memory -- my own memory is as clear as could
11 be -- that I never saw any inappropriately aged,
12 underaged women on any airplane to my knowledge that
13 were visible to me at any time that I flew. That is
14 my testimony, yes.
15 Q. Well, that's not a response to the
16 question that I asked. Is it your testimony today
17 that you never flew on a private airplane with,
18 quote, "any young women"?
19 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form.
20 A. By young women, I obviously meant in that
21 context underage women. And underage women in the
22 context of sexuality. And, yes, I I stand by
23 that statement.
24 BY MR. SCAROLA:
25 Q. All right. So your your clarification
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1 of your earlier testimony is that you never saw any
2 young women in a sexual context?
3 A. That's not clarification. I think that's
4 what I initially said. That's what I initially
5 intended. And that's the way any reasonable -- any
6 reasonable person would interpret what my original
7 testimony was. So I don't believe my original
8 testimony required any clarification.
9 Q. So what you meant to convey by the
10 statement that you made when you said you never flew
11 with any underage girl or any young women was you
12 never flew with any underage girl or young women in
13 a sexual context?
14 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form.
15 BY MR. SCAROLA:
16 Q. Is that correct?
17 A. Let me simply repeat the fact and that is,
18 to my knowledge, I never flew on an airplane or was
19 ever in the presence on an airplane with any
20 underage woman who would be somebody who might be in
21 a sexual context. I say that only to eliminate the
22 possibility that some four-year-old was on the lap
23 of a mother or somebody was on the airplane with
24 family members.
25 But, no, I do not recall -- and I'm very
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1 firm about this -- being on an airplane with anybody
2 who I believed could be the subject of Jeffrey
3 Epstein or anyone else's improper sexual activities.
4 MR. SCAROLA: All right. Let's mark the
5 transcript that we've been referring to as
6 Exhibit Number 1, please. That's the
7 transcript of the television interviews that
8 we'll be discussing.
9 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit
10 1.)
11 MR. SCOTT: This is actually 2, right? We
12 had one yesterday, an article from the British
13 newspaper?
14 MR. SCAROLA: No. It was not marked as an
15 exhibit. This is the first exhibit that's been
16 marked.
17 MR. SCOTT: No, I know that, but I thought
18 we were going to mark that one. Maybe I was --
19 I asked for that. Okay.
20 It was an answer and counterclaim about
21 the allegation shown to the witness.
22 MR. SCAROLA: And Exhibit Number 2 will be
23 the transcript from yesterday's proceedings
24 that I have just referenced.
25 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff
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1 Exhibit 2.)
2 MR. SCOTT: You don't have a copy of that,
3 do you, of the transcript?
4 MR. SCAROLA: No. Got sent to you. I
5 assume you have it.
6 BY MR. SCAROLA:
7 Q. I'm going to hand you what we'll now mark
8 as Exhibit Number 3.
9 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff
10 Exhibit 3.)
11 MR. SCOTT: There's no question.
12 MR. SWEDER: Yes.
13 BY MR. SCAROLA:
14 Q. Do you recognize that young woman,
15 Mr. Dershowitz?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Never saw her?
18 A. Not that I know of.
19 Q. Never flew on an private airplane with
20 her?
21 A. Not that I know of.
22 Q. Do you recognize the name
23 A. I do recall that Jeffrey Epstein had a
24 friend named
25 Q. That you flew with?
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1 A. I don't remember that I flew with her or
2 not. I may have. But I don't recall necessarily.
3 But I did meet I remember meeting a woman named
4 . This does not look like , like the
5 woman I met.
6 Q. Okay. So that's a -- that's a different
7
8 A. No, I don't know.
9 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form,
10 argumentative.
11 A. I have no idea. I do not recognize this
12 woman. She's not familiar to me at all.
13 I can tell you this: Without any doubt, I
14 never met anybody dressed like this on any airplane
15 or in the presence of Jeffrey Epstein or in any
16 context --
17 BY MR. SCAROLA:
18 Q. Did she have
19 A. -- related to this case.
20 Q. -- more clothes on or less clothes on when
21 you met her?
22 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form. He said he
23 never met her. Misrepresent --
24 BY MR. SCAROLA:
25 Q. When you met the woman that you're
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1 referencing, did she have more clothes on or less
2 clothes on than that woman?
3 A. Every woman that I met in the presence of
4 Jeffrey Epstein was properly dressed, usually in
5 suits and dresses and -- and appropriately covered
6 up. I never met any women in the context of Jeffrey
7 Epstein who were dressed anything like this.
8 Q. Would you agree that that is a young woman
9 in that photograph?
10 A. I have no idea what her age is.
11 Q. So you don't know whether she was underage
12 or overage or a young woman or not a young woman?
13 A. I don't --
14 MR. SCOTT: Objection, form.
15 A. -- know this woman, so I have no idea how
16 old a woman in a picture is. She could be -- she
17 could be 30. She could be 25. I have no idea.
18 BY MR. SCAROLA:
19 Q. Or she could be 15 or 16?
20 A. I don't think so.
21 Q. But you don't know?
22 A. This doesn't -- well, I don't know how old
23 you are. This does not strike me
24 Q. Old enough to know that
25 MR. SCOTT: You're cutting --
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1 BY MR. SCAROLA:
2 Q. -- that's a young woman.
3 MR. SCOTT: Objection. You're cutting the
4 witness off. You're not letting him finish.
5 A. This looks like a picture out of a Playboy
6 or Penthouse magazine. It does not look to me like
7 a person who is under the age of 16 or 17 or 18.
8 But I don't think you can tell anything from the
9 picture. I think you can tell much more from
10 meeting somebody and being with them and having a
11 conversation with them.
12 MR. SCAROLA: Let's mark this photograph,
13 if we could, as Exhibit Number 4.
14 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff
15 Exhibit 4.)
16 BY MR. SCAROLA:
17 Q. Does Exhibit Number 4 help you at all to
18 recognize this young woman?
19 A. I've never -- I have no -- no recollection
20 of this young woman at all.
21 Q. All right. Would you describe for us,
22 please, the that you flew with Jeffrey
23 Epstein on November 17, 2005?
24 A. First, I want to emphasize that that's
25 three years later than any of the issues involved in
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1 this case. I have no recollection of flying with
2 this woman. I saw the name on a manifest.
3 And my recollection of -- I have
4 no recollection of flying with her, but my
5 recollection of is that she was a serious,
6 mid 20s woman friend of Jeffrey Epstein, who I may
7 have met on one or two or three occasions when he
8 was with her in -- perhaps at Harvard University
9 where he was meeting with academics and scholars, or
10 perhaps -- I think that's probably the context
11 where -- where she might have been.
12 Q. But you never flew with her?
13 A. I have no recollection of flying with her.
14 Q. Okay. Well, let me see if this helps to
15 refresh your recollection, Mr. Dershowitz.
16 MR. SCAROLA: Let's mark this as Exhibit
17 Number 5, please.
18 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh, yes.
19 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff
20 Exhibit 5.)
21 BY MR. SCAROLA:
22 Q. Do you see that the name of the woman in
23 the photographs I have handed you is
24 a model?
25 The photographs, sir, look at the
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1 photographs. The photographs identify the woman as
2 , correct?
3 A. Yes, but --
4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Dershowitz, take your
5 time --
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
7 MR. SCOTT: -- review the exhibits. Don't
8 be rushed by Mr. Scarola.
9 A. Yes, it's a different different
10 spelling of the name. The on the manifest
11 is spelled
12 The in the photograph is
13 . I have no idea whether --
14 BY MR. SCAROLA:
15 Q. The last name --
16 A. they are the same person.
17 Q. is the same, , right?
18 A. There's no last name.
19 Q. Well, read down a little bit further, if
20 you would, Mr. Dershowitz.
21 A. You mean as to a different flight?
22 Q. Yes, sir. Identifying the return flight
23 for the same
24 A. I have no idea that it's a return flight.
25 I have nothing on the record that suggests that it's
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