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1 
. And on the next page, two of them say 
2 
, yes. 
3 
Q. 
These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is 
4 
that correct? 
5 
A. 
I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see 
6 
November 2000. Could you remind me of 
' birthday. 
8 
Q. 
9 
A. 
So she would be I at this 
10 
time. 
11 
Q. 
So she's traveling as a passenger under 
12 
the age of 18? That's my question. 
13 
A. 
Under the age of 18, but the age of 
14 
consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17 
15 
and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my 
16 
recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17. 
17 
And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the 
18 
answer to the question is she underage might well be 
19 
no. 
20 
Q. 
My question was, is there nonprivileged 
21 
information that would indicate the truth or falsity 
22 
of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey 
23 
Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under 
24 
the age of 18? 
25 
A. 
I do not know of any statement that she 
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said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my 
2 
mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as 
3 
distinguished from when she was underage. So you 
4 
would have to show me. If the statement was below 
5 
the age of 18, that would be correct. If the 
6 
statement would be underage, that would be more 
7 
questionable. 
8 
Q. 
Do you know the purpose for which she was 
9 
traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights 
10 
indicated on those logs? 
11 
A. 
I do not. 
12 
MR. SCOTT: Privileged. 
13 
MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product, 
14 
attorney-client, common interest. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
Your answer is "I do not"? 
17 
A. 
I do not. 
18 
Q. 
You have not ascertained from any source, 
19 
is what you're telling us, the purpose for her 
20 
travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct? 
21 
MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection 
22 
and instruction. 
23 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
24 
Q. 
You are unable to answer, or you have not? 
25 
A. 
I have been instructed not to answer. 
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1 
Q. 
I misunderstood you. I thought you said 
2 
earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know 
3 
the purpose? 
4 
A. 
I said that in answer to one question. 
5 
You've asked me other questions. 
6 
Q. 
Is there a legitimate purpose for her 
7 
being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein? 
8 
MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative. 
9 
MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 
10 
same instructions. 
11 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
12 
Q. 
Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly 
13 
transport an individual who has not attained the age 
14 
of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent 
15 
that that individual engage in prostitution or in 
16 
any sexual activity? 
17 
A. 
I haven't read the statute clearly, but I 
18 
think that's an accurate paraphrase of my 
19 
understanding of the law, yeah. 
20 
Q. 
Would you agree that that flight log in 
21 
front of you indicates a federal crime was being 
22 
committed against 
at the time when 
23 
she has said a federal crime was being committed 
24 
against her? 
25 
A. 
Oh, absolutely not. 
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MR. INDYKE: Objection. 
2 
A. 
Does not prove a federal crime. 
3 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
4 
instruction. 
5 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
6 
Q. 
So that goes back to my last question. 
7 
What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes 
8 
that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute 
9 
that I just read to you? 
10 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
11 
instruction. 
12 
A. 
I can give this answer. My understanding 
13 
of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the 
14 
prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit 
15 
purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of 
16 
proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime 
17 
occurred. It would prove one element of that crime. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
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2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward. 
22 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
23 
Q. 
Let me try to understand that which you 
24 
are explaining right now, which is are you saying 
25 
that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's 
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airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and 
2 
or prostitution, that --
3 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
4 
instructions. 
5 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
6 
Q. 
-- she was not being sexually trafficked 
7 
or would not be a victim of that statute? 
8 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
9 
instruction. 
10 
MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical 
11 
now based on his last statement. 
12 
MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical. 
13 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how 
14 
you framed it. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
Let me reframe it, then. 
17 
Assuming that -- I'll give you a 
18 
hypothetical based on what you say her friends have 
19 
told you, which is that she is free to leave while 
20 
being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein. 
21 
This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual 
22 
purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a 
23 
victim to sexual trafficking? 
24 
MR. SCOTT: Objection to form, 
25 
speculation, argumentative. Can you answer 
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that? 
2 
A. 
I can answer it. Since you gave me a 
3 
hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I 
4 
would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I 
5 
would ask my students do you think it's trafficking, 
6 
do you think a woman has been trafficked when she 
7 
voluntarily, below the age of consent in some 
8 
states, above the age of consent in other states, 
9 
when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for 
10 
money, free to leave at any time. 
11 
I think it would be an interesting 
12 
classroom discussion about whether that constitutes 
13 
trafficking. 
14 
That's a different question from whether 
15 
or not that would violate the statute. That would 
16 
violate the statute. But your question is, would it 
17 
constitute trafficking. That would be a very 
18 
interesting law school hypothetical. 
19 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
20 
Q. 
In your opinion, does it constitute 
21 
trafficking? 
22 
A. 
I think the word "trafficking" is 
23 
overused, and I think should be reserved for the 
24 
kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for, 
25 
people who have no choice, no options, whose 
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passports have been taken away, who have been forced 
2 
and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct. 
3 
And I think it begins to weaken the very 
4 
important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a 
5 
volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was 
6 
enjoying and spending money and has the option of 
7 
leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her 
8 
head, but that's my honest opinion. 
9 
Q. 
Does your answer to the hypothetical 
10 
change if we rewind time 
11 
when she's 15 or 
12 
16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction 
13 
because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so, 
14 
what's the cutoff? 
15 
A. 
Well, I think that age is relevant 
16 
MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is 
17 
all hypothetical? 
18 
MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is. 
19 
A. 
Age is one of the relevant factors. It's 
20 
not the only relevant factor. It's one of the 
21 
relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was 
22 
17, almost 18, 17 and a half. 
23 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
24 
Q. 
Let's get that right. That's when, 
25 
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A. 
We're talking about 
2 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still 
3 
operating under the hypothetical? 
4 
MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said 
5 
that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in 
6 
this hypothetical, she turns 
7 
8 
THE WITNESS: =, 
the same year. 
9 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
10 
Q. 
Was she lying when she said that 
11 
Epstein --
12 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done 
13 
with the hypothetical? 
14 
MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
engaged in sex with many underage 
17 
girls? Was she lying when she said that? 
18 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
19 
instructions. 
20 
A. 
I can only say this. You --
21 
MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction? 
22 
A. 
There was an instruction, but I can answer 
23 
without that. 
24 
You have accused me of having sex with 
25 
many underage girls --
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1 
MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as 
2 
nonresponsive to my question. 
3 
A. 
-- based on no evidence whatsoever. 
4 
MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the 
5 
Motion to Strike. 
6 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the 
7 
rest of it. 
8 
A. 
So when you say "many," I need to know 
9 
with some precision what you have in mind. 
10 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the 
11 
first part of it, the first part of his answer. 
12 
And if you can assist him in defining "many."
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg, 
15 
correct? 
16 
A. 
I've known him since 1959. 
17 
Q. 
And you are aware that he represented, I 
18 
believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been 
19 
victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you? 
20 
A. 
I recommended him for that job because I 
21 
think so highly of him. 
22 
Q. 
And in his Complaints, are you aware that 
23 
he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has 
24 
a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are 
25 
you aware of that? 
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MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to 
2 
the relevancy of all of this. 
3 
A. 
I'm not aware of that. 
4 
MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the 
5 
extent that Alan's answer requires him to 
6 
invade privilege, I would object and instruct 
7 
him not to answer. 
8 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the 
9 
confines of the privilege objection, if you can 
10 
answer. 
11 
A. 
I'm not aware that he said that. I 
12 
haven't read his pleadings. 
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Okay. Are you aware that in his 
15 
pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his 
16 
resources and his influence over vulnerable minor 
17 
girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern 
18 
of sexually exploited behavior"? 
19 
A. 
I'm not aware. 
20 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
21 
instruction. 
22 
A. 
I was not involved in that aspect of the 
23 
case. 
24 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
25 
Q. 
You were not involved in the facts part of 
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the case? 
2 
A. 
I was not involved in the compensation 
3 
part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was 
4 
involved in, I was not involved in. 
5 
MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment, 
6 
let's not go into the subject matter of your 
7 
representation, please. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
20 
22 
23 
24 
25 
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1 
question. 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
3 
Q. 
In 2009, when that Complaint and that 
4 
allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey 
5 
Epstein never refuted that allegation in any 
6 
pleading? 
7 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
8 
instruction. 
9 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
10 
Q. 
Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in 
11 
2009? 
12 
A. 
Not in connection with that case. And I 
13 
was not aware of what his response was, if any. 
14 
Q. 
Are you aware that after that allegation 
15 
was made by 
, that Jeffrey Epstein 
16 
paid money to settle her case? 
17 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
18 
instruction. 
19 
MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the 
20 
relevancy of this. 
21 
A. 
My understanding is that the plea bargain 
22 
required him to make payments regardless of what his 
23 
views may have been, that he was absolutely required 
24 
to make those payments. He had no discretion. 
25 
That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you 
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can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but 
2 
that's my understanding of what it said, that he 
3 
could not contest anything. 
4 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
5 
Q. 
You were one of the attorneys that 
6 
represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with 
7 
the United States Attorney's Office, right? 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
A. 
Right, along with 
MR. INDYKE: Same 
A. 
No, I don't think 
Kenneth Starr --
objection. Objection. 
you can object to that. 
These are people who are at the hearings, at the 
events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were 
at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not 
privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty 
Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz --
MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive. 
A. 
-- Jerry Lefcourt. 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
Q. 
lawyers. 
A. 
I was one of them, yes. 
Q. 
I only asked if you were one of the 
The answer is yes? 
A. 
The complete answer is yes, but the rest 
of the people were part of the legal team. 
Q. 
I will ask you when I want somebody else's 
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name. 
2 
Were you a part of the negotiations in 
3 
October of 2007 when the special matter was 
4 
selected? You remember that part? 
5 
A. 
Is the special master Josephsburg? 
6 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
7 
instruction. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
Q. 
Yes. 
10 
A. 
My recollection is that I was simply asked 
11 
for a recommendation, but I played no further role. 
12 
Q. 
Were you aware that there was a joint 
13 
letter to the special master created between Jeffrey 
14 
Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's 
15 
Office describing the investigation? 
16 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
17 
instruction. 
18 
A. 
I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no 
19 
recollection of that. 
20 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
21 
Q. 
Was 
lying when she says 
22 
that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey 
23 
Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated? 
24 
A. 
I have no idea. 
25 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
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instruction. 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
3 
Q. 
If I show you the proposed joint letter to 
4 
the special master, will it refresh your 
5 
recollection? 
6 
A. 
I want to add to the last question 
When 
7 
I say I have no idea, 
8 
9 
10 
11 
MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as 
12 
nonresponsive. 
13 
A. 
But that's relevant to standing naked and 
14 
being masturbated. 
15 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your 
16 
next question. 
17 
A. 
Yes. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
When I am asking for nonprivileged 
20 
information or evidence that would give you the 
21 
ability to tell me whether 
is lying 
22 
when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 
23 
underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted 
24 
between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United 
25 
States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that 
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answer? Let me rephrase the question. 
2 
When I'm asking for nonprivileged 
3 
information that you may have to demonstrate the 
4 
truth or falsity of 
' statement that 
5 
she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 
6 
underage, would you consider the joint letter to the 
7 
special master evidence from which you could draw an 
8 
answer? 
9 
MR. SCOTT: Objection. 
10 
A. 
I would have to know more about it than 
11 
that. I would have to know the nature of the 
12 
letter, the reason it was sent. 
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Would you like to review the letter? Is 
15 
that going to help you? 
16 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's 
17 
seen the letter first. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
You were part of the team that was mainly 
20 
negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct? 
21 
A. 
I was only negotiating the criminal part 
22 
of the case. 
23 
Q. 
Okay. I'm going to show you the letter, 
24 
and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that. 
25 
If you've never seen it before, then tell me that. 
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I guess my first question is, have you 
2 
seen it? 
3 
MR. INDYKE: I would object to that. 
4 
MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request 
5 
for this depo and future depositions, if they 
6 
are going to show exhibits to a witness, I 
7 
think we should be -- have a copy of them. 
8 
We provided copies to you of all exhibits 
9 
we used during the deposition of your client. 
10 
And I think if you're going to pull out 
11 
exhibits and have one, you should have at least 
12 
copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the 
13 
same thing, rather than having to run and make 
14 
a copy and all the rest of it. 
15 
MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be 
16 
unfamiliar with his and his legal team's 
17 
correspondence. 
18 
MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't 
19 
had any all day. So all I'm asking you, 
20 
Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits 
21 
that you intend to confront the witness with. 
22 
That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all 
23 
the questions laid out, so you know where we're 
24 
headed. There's a note on here. Do you want 
25 
that on there? 
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MR. EDWARDS: No. 
2 
MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet 
3 
notes. I don't know if you really want that on 
4 
there. 
5 
MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this 
6 
nonprivileged?" 
7 
MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit 
8 
going into evidence, right? Without your 
9 
notes? 
10 
MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked? 
11 
THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a 
12 
letter. 
13 
MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed 
14 
letter. I read the title exactly. 
15 
(Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit 
16 
19.) 
17 
A. 
This is not -- it's not familiar to me 
18 
except that what I said previously that as part of 
19 
the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he 
20 
would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who 
21 
chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my 
22 
memory, but I have no recollection of actually 
23 
seeing this draft, this proposed draft. 
24 
MR. SCOTT: That's number? 
25 
COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. 
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BY MR. EDWARDS: 
2 
Q. 
Wouldn't you agree 
wasn't 
one of the listed victims to the 
4 
nonprosecution agreement? 
5 
A. 
If so, I was not aware of. 
6 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
7 
instruction. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
Q. 
As you sit here today, after having made 
10 
many statements about 
being a 
11 
serial liar --
12 
A. 
She is. 
13 
Q. 
-- you have no idea whether she was a 
14 
listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement? 
15 
MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered. 
16 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
17 
instruction. 
18 
A. 
Right now, I have no recollection of 
19 
whether she was listed or not. 
20 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
21 
Q. 
Okay. 
22 
A. 
I know that the FBI tried to speak to her 
23 
and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection. 
24 
MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 
25 
MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive. 
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