Epstein Files

Page 300 1 A Yeah. 2 right about that same time, he quite quickly 3 identified a potential problem, and that was the commitment 4 for the -- or, the agreement that the U.S. Attorney's Office 5 would identify the representative for the victims. Do you 6 recall him raising that? 7 A I don't recall him...

Page 301 1 A -- but yes. 2 Q And at the time theta/MEM saw the NPA, to 3 he sent a message MO about the -- about his view 4 of the NPA, and you didn't see it, but I just wanted to name 5 some problems that he identified with the disposition, and 6 get your reaction -- 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q -- to it. So, f...

Page 300 1 A Yeah. 2 right about that same time, he quite quickly 3 identified a potential problem, and that was the commitment 4 for the -- or, the agreement that the U.S. Attorney's Office 5 would identify the representative for the victims. Do you 6 recall him raising that? 7 A I don't recall him...

Page 302 1 or they could hire their own attorneys on a contingency 2 basis, and they get waivers from the defendant when his plea 3 would facilitate their civil cases in any event. Then, they 4 still have to sue him to get anything. Most times with wealthy defendants, we make them 6 agree to a resti...

Pagel 303 if you had been aware of this perspective at the time you were -- that you and your people were fashioning the NPA, would that have been helpful to you in -- in deciding out to proceed? A So, may I? Q Yes. A Okay. I assume you've read the whole thing, but 8 let me just take a 9 Q I have. 1...

Page 304 Q MO-hmm. -- put the victims as a disadvantage -- 4 Mm-hmm. A -- and there is some reference to -- Q It's the -- A Was it an Alaska case? Q It's called the case. 5 MR. THE WITNESS I'm sorry? IC MR. 11 THE WITNESS NM 12 MS. or 13 THE WITNESS a=? 14 BY MS. 15 Q Yeah. 16 A And so to the extent...

Page 305 1 Q Okay. As you set about addressing the 22.55, you 2 consulted with . Do you recall that? 3 A I -- I recall consultations. I don't recall that 4 it was specifically with a but -- 5 Q Did you know her? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay, and do you recall the nature of your 8 interaction with her? 9 A I --...

Page 306 1 A I -- 12 years -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- after the fact, I don't remember. 4 Q Okay. All right. The -- in Exhibit 35, there is a 5 letter from Jay Lefkowitz in which -- I'm sorry, it's an e- 6 mail from Jay Lefkowitz. 7 A Exhibit? 8 Q Exhibit 35 to you, and this is substantially later, 9 but i...

Page 307 1 A Or misleadingly. 2 Q All right. 3 A What I recall agreeing to at some point is there 4 was an appeal to the DAG, or there was an appeal in place, 5 and I basically said -- I think there was a letter that I 6 sent, saying if you want to appeal, go ahead. We're not 7 concerned about this....

Page 308 1 A Fair, because the way this was reported was that I 2 negotiated it over breakfast. It was signed, and that's 3 really important. 4 Q Of course. There were, however, a number of open S issues -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- right? And in Exhibit 28, Jay Lefkowitz on page 8 two, this is an e-mail to y...

Page 309 1 one on one meetings, but there are other instances where : 2 might from time to time have one on one conversations with 3 the opposing counsel. 4 I don't remember the breakfast. I can speculate 5 that one of the issues that was informing this was somewhere 6 around this time, and I can't ...

Page 310 1 A through, or my counsel responded, and they're 2 pointing out that I seem fairly perturbed at how he 3 inaccurately characterized something that I said. And so, we 4 don't need to revisit that, but -- 5 Q Uh-uh. All right. If you look at Exhibit 27, 6 another sort of point, just to kind ...

Page 311 1 S just got off the phone with you, and then he furnishes 2 a revised paragraph one, which suggests -- I mean, I infer 3 from that that shortly after the breakfast, you had a phone 4 conversation with i a about a revision to this 5 paragraph, and that -- that that was likely something that...

Page 312 1 And so, to -- there are multiple ways to read this. 2 One is that this was raised. Another is that we're rejecting 3 something that Jay had proposed, and -- 4 MS. : Mm-hmm. 5 THE WITNESS -- because I was meeting with Jay, I 6 asked that not reject it until after I met with him, and 7 I --...

1 EVEN/NG SESSION 2 6:00 P.M. 3 the office would not intervene with the state's attorney's 4 office, and -- or contact the civil claimants, or intervene S regarding the sentence that Epstein receives pursuant to a 6 plea agreement. Q So, is he correct in his recounting that? A Can you -- can you fin...

Page 314 1 letter, and I move it -- I sort of emphasize -- like, I make 2 it firmer, and my edit says our office cannot and will not 3 agree to this, and then my comment to is, what do you 4 think of this rewrite? Is it too strong? S BY MR.IIMIE: 6 Q What day was that? 7 A That was two days after th...

Page 315 1 I specifically want to clarify one of the items 2 that I believe was inaccurate in the October 23rd letter. 3 Your office claims that this office would not intervene with 4 the state attorney's office regarding this matter, or contact 5 any of the individuals, potential witnesses, or pote...

Page 31E 1 A And to edit language to, our office cannot 2 and will not agree to this, is not my agreeing with this 3 characterization, but my polite way of saying, this ain't 4 what I said. 5 Q Mn-hmm. 6 A Let me be clear. 7 Q And then -- 8 A Again, no independent recollection. This is just 9 based ...

Page 317 1 THE WITNESS So, I think something to talk about 2 is, pre-agreement and post-agreement, I think are different, 3 and one concern that I had, and I certainly shared with -- 4 with Mr.e was once it was signed -- so, we had the 5 initial issues with the case. 6 Once the agreement was signed,...

Page BY MS. 2 Q Didn't bind what? 3 A So, if we were to walk away, were -- could we still 4 prosecute? 5 Q I see. 6 A Right? Because having signed that, we were now 7 parties to an agreement, and that would overlay any sort of 8 prosecution. And So, you had these collateral issues coming. 9 BY MS. 1...

change from, here is the date that you must comply, to, you 2 must use best efforts to comply? 3 A Possibly. I would -- whether it was that, or 4 others, or other parts of the agreement, we can talk about, 5 but how -- once the agreement was signed, and they do not -- 6 and they start pushing the da...

Page 32C 1 attorney general for criminal division, to be polite, but it 2 was up to the DAG. 3 And so, if main justice is going to give this 4 degree of process, we should -- we should be in the position 5 of saying go forward, as opposed to, I don't think it looks 6 positive for the office to be vi...

Page 321 1 Q But there's a difference between, have at it, go, 2 do what you want, up at main, and getting that -- 3 Right. 4 Q -- that non-opposition, and actually sending a 5 signal to -- in the -- in the case of the criminal division, 6 the assistant attorney general, in the case of the DAG's 7 o...

Page 322 1 Q Min-hmm. 2 A -- 12 years now. The very reason that we invited 3 to come down to Miami back in August was a sense that it 4 would end up up here. And so, if it's going to end up up 5 here, let's bring down. 6 Let's make him part of the initial meeting. You 7 know, if there are concerns, ...

Page 323 1 Q To the criminal division. Did you convey to main 2 justice criminal division that you wanted them to conduct the 3 review that defense counsel were seeking? 4 A So, I don't recall what I may or may not have 5 conveyed. I think my recollection was, if they want a 6 review, that's their r...

Page 324 1 only, and that he not be permitted to -- or that the criminal 2 divisions -- that the -- I'm sorry, I misspoke. That because 3 IIIMINIMIllhad already been involved in essentially 4 being a prosecutor on the case -- 5 A Right. 6 Q -- that the -- the criminal division and CEOs' role 7 vis a...

Page 325 1 that you be part. If we go to trial, it's important that you 2 be part of the trial. As I -- as I went through the record, 3 at least I remember -- 4 Q Me-hmm. 5 A -- an e-mail, perhaps from to that I'm 6 copied on saying, hey, can you reconsider? It's important 7 that you be part of this...

Page 326 1 Q All right. BY MS. Q And just one -- A Yeah. 5 Q -- just one point. This one -- this one was a 6 little bit of an -- 7 A Yeah. 8 Q -- odd posture, however, because you had a signed 9 agreement. And so, you know, basically a contract between 10 parties -- 11 A Right. 12 Q -- and particula...

Page 327 1 Q MM-hmm. 2 A -- be accurate. Are we extracting unduly? Are we 3 using criminal law to extract civil concessions in an 4 ethically suspect way? Those are serious issues. That isn't 5 just, is this a good case? 6 Those are -- those are genuine issues. I happen to 7 think that, as I recall,...

Page 328 1 those are valid issues for the deputy and the AAG to review. 2 Q But one could look at it and say, well, those are 3 all issues that the defense certainly knew about before they 4 signed that agreement, and having signed the agreement, they 5 are waiving all of that. That's what contracts...

Page 329 1 THE WITNESS So -- 2 MS. : -- to him -- 3 THE WITNESS -- so -- 4 MS. : -- in response to the -- 5 THE WITNESS So -- 6 MS. -- 22.55 issue. 7 THE WITNESS I think, you know, I -- you know, I'm 8 starting on page four. I have responded personally in some 9 detail to your concerns because I car...

Page 330 1 exchanges at the time were a bit litigious. 2 BY MS. 3 Q This -- could I -- could I thought point out -- 4 i•. Yeah. 5 Q -- that this letter is in response to not the at 6 the request for a review by the criminal division, that comes 7 later. This is in response to Ken Starr's letter to 8...

Page 331 1 have not been raised with this office previously, or have 2 been raised and in fact resolved in your client's favor. 3 I'm troubled likewise by the apparent lack of 4 finality in this agreement. The AUSAs have been negotiating 5 with defense counsel and have for sometimes complained to me...

Page 332 1 me that she's ready to unwind the agreement and proceed to 2 trial if necessary, or appropriate. 3 Q So, are you suggesting that this represents your 4 protest of their appeal to 5 A So o' Q -- on this point? 7 A So, protest is a is a loaded word. What I'm 8 suggesting is, this is not an ...

Page 333 1 this is not an invitation to appeal. 2 Q But there was nothing you could do to stop their 3 appeal, right? Except indict? 4 A And so the department shouldn't stop an appeal to main justice by -- you know, by threatening. 6 Q Fair enough. 7 A Because main justice has a right to review. 8 Q...

Page 334 1 on, and getting this thing through expeditiously, did you 2 feel like you just had to sit there and wait for everything 3 to get done? 4 A I'm not sure sit there and wait, but -- but 5 ultimately, the case did not get better with time, and there. 6 was frustration on our apart about, you ...

Page 335 1 Q Okay. Did you discuss the -- did you have 2 conversations with the DAG -- with Mark Filip about this 3 case? 4 A Not to my recollection. 5 Q Okay, and we've already talked about the submission 6 that made on behalf of your office? 7 A Which -- which -- yes, which I thought was a 8 fulso...

Page 336 1 the disposition, the plea agreement, or the NPA. 2 A So -- so, it was a brief letter. Based on 3 submission, I would have read that letter as, they had all 4 the material in front of them, and they were saying that 5 there was no misconduct or abuse of discretion. 6 Q That's correct, but ...

Page 337 1 for that of the U.S. Attorney, we believe that federal 2 prosecution of this case is appropriate. Moreover, having 3 reviewed your allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, and 4 the facts underlying them, we see nothing in the conduct of 5 the U.S. Attorney's Office that gives us any reas...

Page 338 1 Q And did you ever discuss that -- did you ever 2 discuss with anyone in ODAG what the scope of their review 3 was? 4 A Not to -- not to my recollection. It was a fulsome 5 submission. 6 Q Correct, but if -- if -- but the issues presented 7 by the defense were essentially federalism issue...

Page 339 1 aware it existed, whatever its status might have been? 2 A So, again, it was clearly submitted. It was 3 clearly referenced. 4 Q ME-hmm. 5 A And it was clearly part of the complaint. The 6 complaint -- the heart of the complaint about our office was 7 that we were using this agreement to ...

Page 340 1 A Right. -- and then we have some kind of wind up questions. 3 A Okay. 4 Can we -- before we take a break, MR. IIIIIIII 5 can I just -- 6 MS. Yes. IIIIIIII/ 7 MR. IME I'll try to queue up what's going to 8 be coming next -- 9 THE WITNESS Mm-hmm. 10 MR. -- and maybe that'll help us move 11...

Page 341 1 that might be helpful if you take a look at a couple of them 2 so we don't have to go through -- maybe during the break so 3 we don't have to go through them one by one, or I can just 4 give you a very quick overview of sort of where we're going. 5 / want to find out basically how you wer...

Page 342 1 the state resolution and plea, inviting them to come. 2 To ultimately a letter from you coming on the 19th 3 of December 2007, which is No. 41b agreeing to not notify the 4 victims of the state plea, and agreeing with the defense to 5 have the state be responsible for putting out that 6 n...

Page 343 1 A Yeah. 2 Q -- I'll try to orient you for the timelines. So, 3 if you'd just have a -- I've highlighted the sections of 4 those letters that we want to talk about, and if you have a S chance while we're taking a break to look through them, that 6 may help orient you so that we're not -- 7...

Page 344 1 A As a general matter, I recall that there was back 2 and forth regarding -- after the agreement -- regarding how 3 to notify the victims, and there was back and forth between 4 and Jay Lefkowitz and around all that. 5 Sorry, I'm losing my voice. 6 I recall that there was an issue in part...

Page 345 involved in at least one dispute around the 22.55, the nuts 2 and bolts of how victims were notified is not something that 3 I have a recollection about. 4 Q Okay. Fair. 5 A But we can unpack it. 6 Q Okay. Let's start with the Exhibit 33. So, there, 7 we have an -- as you can see, it's an e...

Page 346 1 conversation. As a general matter, this is not something I 2 was getting into the weeds on unless I had to. There was a 3 lot of back and forth. 4 Q MM-hmm. 5 A a is someone that I trusted. He was handling 6 this matter. He's incredibly experienced. I know that there 7 were concerns and i...

Page 347 1 Q Mm-hmm. Isn't that usually done -- accomplished by 2 almost a computerized task? 3 A I -- I would assume so, so yes. 4 Q And it's a -- given that that's the usual way that 5 notifications are made by a victim witness specialist, who is 6 usually that person? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do I have that ...

4 Page 348 1 with notification of a possibility, where that possibility 2 could be used to impeach potential future witnesses who are 3 also the victims, and that is a matter that was being worked 4 out by the AUSAs in the office. 5 Q And the -- and the impeachment is what? 6 A And so, the impeachme...

Page 349 1 wealthy defendant? 2 A It may be. The 22.55 may make it a little 3 different because it's automatic, but ultimately, these are 4 the judgements that line attorneys make, and as U.S. 5 Attorney, I think it's appropriate to back up their judgment 6 unless there was some reason for me to bel...

Page 350 1 know, I'm responsible for the office. I'm not shirking, I'm 2 just saying that this is -- that this was for the most part 3 within their wheelhouse, and not something that -- that I was 4 involved in. I can -- I can speculate. 5 Q Sure. 6 A The agreement was notifying them -- the letter w...

Page 351 1 A Are you referring to paragraph 10? 2 Q I'm sorry, I'm not on the -- I'm on the letter, 3 not -- I'm sorry, I'm on the -- 4 A Oh. 5 Q -- left -- the letter to -- 6 A Sorry. 7 Lefkowitz, not the draft letter. This one right 8 here. 9 A The additionally? 10 Q Yes, additionally, pursuant to...

Page 352 1 this federal -- should be appropriately informed that a non- 2 pros does not require to forego its legal obligation. On a 3 sentence by sentence basis, I mean, do I agree, sitting here? 4 Sure, but I would want to sort of sit down before I gave a 5 legal opinion and spent more time with i...

Page 353 1 it wasn't legally binding. 2 Q So -- and in the same manner though, while the CVRA 3 isn't legally binding, it also doesn't prevent you from 4 notifying the victims, does it? S A It does not, no. 6 Q And you have the discretion to notify, should you 7 choose to. 8 A Correct. 9 Q Okay. And...

Page 354 A So, I -- I don't want to speak to the reasoning, 2 but it's clearly a draft that the government is saying, it 3 intends to send. 4 Q Okay. Now, ultimately, just this is not a 5 question, just -- 6 A Got it. 7 Q -- some information that will help to move us 8 along. 9 A Right. 10 Q The -- ...

Page 355 1 letter is complaining about an oral notification that Ms. 2 gave to a -- one of the defense -- one of the 3 victim's attorneys that a letter would be coming. 4 And so, Mr. Starr is writing you to complain about 5 it, and he mentions in -- later in that paragraph that we 6 have thought tha...

Page 356 1 I don't recall communications with Mr. Starr, that's why I'm 2 curious where -- at least verbal communications. I'm curious 3 where you're reading that from. 4 Q I thought he -- he's saying, we had thought that 5 the notification process had been held in abeyance until 6 completion of our...

Page 357 1 We did not direct the state proceeding. So, 2 whatever state process is appropriate for the state process 3 will be given. But with respect to the federal resolution, 4 we intend to provide victims with notice of the federal 5 resolution as required by law, and your question is if we 6 th...

Page 358 1 attorney thinks is appropriate. It's not for me to direct 2 the state attorney. 3 I'm inferring, based on this language, it's not for 4 me to direct the state attorney, or for our office to direct 5 the state attorney's office on its obligations with respect 6 to the state outcome. 7 Q Ok...

Page 359 1 the victims, wasn't it, that they didn't even necessarily 2 know the same list as the federal victims, because you had 3 found more victims. 4 A So, we could certainly have shared that list with 5 them. I mean, there are -- there are ways that this could 6 have happened. I don't know how ...

Page 36C 1 have sat down with , most likely, since he was handling 2 this matter, and we would have talked about it. I would 3 not have sent this without running it by at least if 4 not other individuals in the office. I don't know if based 5 on your record there is -- there's e-mails with drafts, b...

Page 361 1 MS. Mm-hmm. 2 THE WITNESS -- that Miami does. 3 MR. Back to me? 4 MS. in Mm-hmm. 5 MS. Mm-hmm. 6 MS. : Back to you. 7 BY MR. 8 Q Before we finish with this latter from the 19th, 9 can we look at page three, please? There is -- if you could 10 read the first paragraph on page three to your...

Page 362 1 And is -- is the delay justified or not justified. 2 And ultimately, that additional -- that additional 3 liability -- not liability, that additional legal uncertainty 4 was -- would have made the case even harder, because they S were very careful to always say there is no breach. 6 MS. M...

Page 363 1 MR.IIIIF: January 4th. MS. : That address -- January. 3 THE WITNESS I'm Sorry, the January 4th plea date. 4 Sorry, it's -- 5 BY MS. 6 Q And that addresses the question I was asking. 7 A And that goes to the question you're asking, and 8 again, I'm recreating and I'm speculating. Having th...

Page 364 1 because is that saying please appeal me, or is that saying -- 2 this is an 11th hour appeal that you have now taken to 3 Washington. 4 It is December 19th. We're about to go into the 5 holidays. There's a January 4th plea date. This should not 6 be another way to put it off. And so, if yo...

Page 36 1 case should be resolved? 2 A So, again, not based on recollection, because this 3 is maybe if not 12, 11 years ago. 4 Q Okay. 5 A But at this point, there had been an agreement. 6 The agreement was signed. It was being reviewed. Based on 7 this e-mail, we're trying to get and expedite the ...

Page 366 1 signed agreement, but based on the course of conduct, is that 2 agreement really an agreement that will be honored? And so 3 there was an ongoing investigation as well, because we didn't 4 know if we'd go to trial, and I know that -- not I know. 5 My recollection is that the judgement was...

Page 367 1 the issues with the witnesses in this case -- 2 A Right. 3 Q -- that, potential impeachment, and that -- you 4 know, that caused you to -- that went into the negotiation phase. Did you have any interest in seeing these people -- 6 even interacting with them personally so you could make yo...

Page 368 1 resolution, and of the agreement, and how -- basically, how it played out. 3 Q Now, are you saying now -- now, you had agreed to 4 not notify -- well, did you -- I mean, you're -- one would 5 read your December 12th -- 19th letter as an agreement that 6 the federal government is not going...

Page 369 1 how my recollection -- based on having reviewed the record, 2 that's how I believe it proceeded, although I think 3 attempted to do so, couldn't reach some attorneys, and 4 exercised best efforts to let them know, but did not get 5 ahold of all of the victims -- 6 Q Let's -- 7 A -- over t...

Page 370 1 Q Well, the -- what says in affidavit -- 2 A Correct. 3 Q -- I believe is that she made notification, and the 4 police department -- Chief police department made 5 notifications. Is that -- is that correct? Does that ring a 6 bell? 7 A 8 MR. TODD: Do you have a copy of the affidavit, so 9...

Page 371 1 the NPA to suggest that victims had been encouraged by the 2 FBI or the office to overstate the victimization for monetary 3 compensation. And then fast forwarding because you can read 4 it on your own. 5 On Friday, June 27th at approximately 4:15, 6 received a copy of Epstein's proposed ...

Page 372 1 potential plea for that Monday? 2 A The affidavit said she attempted to notify the 3 victims, so I can't speak to that. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And I don't have an independent recollection of 6 this going back 12 years. 7 Q Were you aware that Ms. was directed to 8 have no communication with the st...

Page 373 1 A I can't speak to that, no. 2 Q And would you have any knowledge of who the state 3 victims are? 4 A I would infer that -- that our office would have 5 had sufficient communication with the state attorney's office 6 to communicate who the victims were in this case, because it 7 was an on...

Page 374 1 Thank you. So, we -- we've had a lot of conversation about 2 facts. We are fortunate in this case to have a plethora of 3 documents upon which we can rely even 12 years or so after 4 the fact, and we've tried to plum your -- the depths of your 5 memory as to the events. 6 Are there any fa...

Page 375 1 individuals who abused power, and have now been prosecuted -- 2 who were known at the time who abused drugs, like Bill Cosby 3 and -- who were -- there were rumors at the time, and you 4 know, and -- and so, looking back, maybe it was the right 5 call. 6 Maybe it wasn't the right call, bu...

Page 376 1 Q MM-hmm. 2 A -- this portion of it, it's important to just 3 restate that. 4 Q And -- and to -- in addition, are there any facts 5 that you -- conversations, or anything that you -- 6 A Fair, you did ask this. 7 Q -- that we have -- that we've not really elicited 8 from you that you want...

Page 377 resolution. And I -- I think I addressed some of this in the 2 Daily Beast's letter. 3 Q Mm-hmm. 4 A Because we were receiving criticism back then, and 5 I think that letter has been misconstrued to some extent, 6 because it was not, oh, here are influential people, we're 7 backing off. 8 I...

Page 378 that access. Was -- did that seem extraordinary to you? 2 A So, they asked for a meeting with me before the 3 agreement was signed. 4 Q Mm-hmm. 5 A I granted that. That's not the first and only time 6 that I granted a meeting to -- to defense attorneys. I don't 7 think it's atypical, partic...

1 writ large, the department, do you believe they would have 2 had the same or a comparable level of access? 3 A So -- 4 Q I don't know the answer. I'm asking. 5 A Yeah. So, I guess I'd respond this way. If an 6 attorney after meeting with my management staff asked for a 7 meeting with me, I believe...

Page 380 1 him, or instructed him not to do that, and to direct his 2 communications to the line attorney or her supervisors. Is 3 that -- is that -- 4 A 5 Q -- a fair characterization? 6 A Yes, on -- I think on several occasions, I said 7 direct them, and again, that was after the agreement was 8 s...

Epstein case over the years? Q In your view overall, and in whatever specific respect you wish to address, is -- has it been accurate or $ not so? 6 A I think it has been inaccurate in several ways, and 7 we can go through them, but -- 8 Q If you could just tick those off? 9 A So, I think it's inacc...

Page 382 1 there is a legal comparison, right? 2 The U.S. Attorney in Chicago could have stepped in 3 and said, whether or not the state takes this plea, we may 4 investigate this federally, and sort of stopped that plea 5 from going forward, or at least put a wrench in those gears, 6 or the U.S. At...

Page 383 1 recollection, was local. 2 And so, the distinction between this Palm Beach 3 incident and what the media likes to cover, which is, you 4 know, was, you know, did Mr. Epstein force a minor to have 5 sexual relations with Prince Andrew, is a very different fact 6 pattern both in terms of th...

Page 384 A No. Q -- in connection with this case? 3 A No. 4 Q And to your knowledge, was there any such offer to 5 anyone associated with this case in your office? 6 A Not to my knowledge. 7 Q It's been asserted also that the -- the handling of 8 the case in the office was affected by Epstein's weal...

Page 385 A Right, and so, so one question that at -- that also 2 doesn't get asked is, you know, to what extent was this case 3 brought to us in the first place because of this, because of 4 his profile? 5 Q In other words, are you suggesting that his wealth and influence in the community affected t...

Page 386 1 2 Q What do you think about the media's treatment of 3 the line assistant, =ME? 4 A I think she -- I wish her name wouldn't be in the 5 media. You know, to some extent, U.S. Attorneys, when they 6 take the job, realize that part of their job is to take the 7 slings and arrows. 8 You know,...

Page 387 1 defense was, "More aggressive than any of which I or the 2 prosecutors in my office had previously encountered." You 3 noted that the defense investigated prosecutors and tried to 4 disqualify two, and I believe that those two are 5 and . Is that -- 6 A That is correct. 7 Q All right. A Y...

Page 388 1 accusations against the attorneys, but the 2 mischaracterization. I -- you know, I could go through the 3 record, and there's several instances where my words, or 4 other AUSAs words are being mischaracterized, or where 5 going back to one of the Mlle-mails, people walk out of the 6 meeti...

Page 389 looking for personal peccadillos that provide a -- so, was, to my recollection, she wasn't investigated. I tri and I haven't encountered that in other cases. I recall it -- at one point, they also looked in , and family, and his background, and I thought that was little out of line. Q 12 14...

A tl Ni lilt the point I was trying to convey is, this is not a -- this is not typical behavior by defense counsel. Q Did -- A And despite all this, my point was, despite all this, we did not budge. Q And again, that's not the focus of -- Right. Q -- of this guestion.I 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 19 Q All ri...

Page 391 1 Q -- else -- 2 A -- just because I'm trying to think through, and 3 not to my recollection, no. 4 Q Did they ever raise or imply that there were 5 that there was information regarding you of whatever respect, 6 that was in the nature of a sort of a threat, or a veiled 7 warning? 8 A So, t...

Page 392 1 I may have chatted with him, but -- but that would have been 2 it. Q And did you consult with him at all in connection with your efforts -- your interest in potentially teaching or being involved in the -- sort of the law school world, either at Harvard, or at Florida International, or an...

Page 393 1 A -- went through that. I don't recall any 2 conversation with Professor Dershowitz about that. To the 3 extent I was thinking about it, it'd be natural for me to 4 talk to but I don't recall talking to him. With 5 respect to Professor Dershowitz, with respect to FIU, the 6 dean process i...

Page 394 1 A I'm a big believer, and I had good relationships 2 with the defense bar. I think lawyers can disagree and not 3 be disagreeable, and we would be a better profession if we 4 all learned to do that. 5 Q So would the world. 6 A Yes. 7 Q There is an -- sort of investigative journalist 8 aut...

Pane 395 1 Q And she says in that book that you told her a few 2 years after the NPA was signed that as she writes, "He felt incapable of going up against those eight powerful attorneys. He felt his career was at stake." Did you say that to her? 5 A Not to my recollection, and what I tried to do was...

Page 396 1 A And this was recently, and I say this, because when 2 folks read this letter, they read it as, this is why, you 3 know, we had these -- they -- I think sometimes they 4 selectively read language. The prosecutors and agents in 5 this case -- and what followed was a yearlong assault. I 6 ...

Page 397 1 is that the panoply, this pantheon of attorneys did not have 2 the influence on you that's alleged? 3 A And -- and the purpose of this letter was to say, 4 despite all this Q Right. O A -- we held firm. So, how can you say that there's influence if we held firm? Q So, the -- 9 A And I wou...

interview, or give a -- have a conversation with Ms. 2 aside -- or, just sent her this letter? 3 A I spoke to her briefly saying, I'm not going to 4 speak on the record. I'm not going to address even off the 5 record details of this case, but I will provide a letter to 6 you. I've had a lot of reque...

Page 399 1 agreement was signed. 2 It's our expectation that he be treated just like 3 everyone else, if -- if it was typical to provide that kind 4 of work release in these cases, that would have been news to S me. I certainly would not have expected that, and I think 6 based on our subsequent comm...

Page 400 1 of acts that typically are associated with registration that 2 that should go forward, but the primary motivation there was, 3 put the public on notice that he is a registered sex 4 offender. 5 Q And did you see any conflict with that as being a 6 goal with the provision in the NPA that w...

Page 401 1 Is this an ongoing investigation? 2 How do we deal with all these notification issues? 3 If we had foreseen all of that, I think I've said before, 4 that -- that something I certainly think should have been 5 considered, and it's very possible we would have done 6 something very different...

Page 402 1 differently if what was it, October 24 2 Q MM-hmm. 3 A -- he would have gone in and plead and taken his 4 time and served his time like so many other people have done 5 as opposed to mount all these legal challenges that we then 6 had to work through. 7 Q And I'll preface my question with...

Page 403 1 BY MS. 2 Q In your press conference, you reference -- this is 3 the -- I think July 10, 2019 press conference. You referenced victims, what they went through was A Mm-hmm. 6 Q -- horrific, you said, and then you said, I've seen 7 these videos. I've seen the interviews. I have seen the 8 i...

Page 404 1 impartiality, and once those judgements were made, despite 2 all the attorneys involved, and despite all the litigation, 3 and all the -- all the stuff, all the appeals to Washington 4 and the -- you know, we stuck to that position. 5 Q Mm-hmm. 6 A And I think that speaks to the way the o...

Page 405 Q All right. 2 A And -- and to clarify, I also don't know where 3 press reports from multiple sources -- not from multiple 4 sources, but from multiple media outlets that I told someone that he was an intelligence asset. 6 I do not know where that came from. If -- if I can just -- so, there...

Page 406 1 Q All right. Thank you, and we are familiar with 2 that, what you're referring to. 3 A Was -- was there cooperation related to financial 4 matters? 5 Q We didn't ask you about it. 6 A Okay. 7 Q As you can tell, OPR obtained many electronic 8 records -- 9 A Yeah. 10 Q -- mainly e-mails, bu...

Page 407 idea why that might be the case? 2 A I can't, and my recollection was after -- after 3 several issues that took place, the department had some sort 4 of records retention software that automatically retained 5 these e-mails. Is that not accurate? 6 Q There was a -- there was a switchover fr...

Page 408 1 A Not to my recollection. I think there's a fulsome 2 record, and not to my recollection. 3 Q All right, and is there any particular gap that 4 you've discerned in the records that we've provided to you? 5 A Not that I recall. Do you have the e-mails that I 6 sent, out of curiosity? 7 Q W...

Page 409 1 an ongoing case, and we sort of had binders out that sort of 2 had correspondence back and forth. 3 Q All right, and you've already made we've 4 we -- I asked you about facts, but you addressed a sort of a 5 broader statement to us for the record about the case. Is 6 there anything else y...

Pac,- 1 attorney. 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q We'll ask you to review it, to make not only any corrections, but also clarifications, and to add to it -- 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q -- if you feel having read something that it needs 7 to be clarified or expanded upon, you're invited to do so. 8 A And if I could ask one -- o...

Page 411 1 MS. -- to come in and help us with this 2 case. 3 THE WITNESS So, so, let me -- now that we're off 4 the record, let me say -- 5 MS. : Are we off the record? THE REPORTER: Not yet. THE WITNESS Not yet? Oh. MS. No? 9 THE REPORTER: You didn't say it. 10 MS. : All right. That's it. We're off...

Page 412 CERTIFICATE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ) I, Beth Roots, Notary Public, before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing pages was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness w...