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2 
3 
4 
Q. 
A. 
Q. 
A. 
Page 121 
Well, did she tell you something? 
No. 
That is, did 
aunt tell you something? 
No. It was just 
that's when I found out 
5 
that 
was a little older than 
and --
6 
Q. 
When did you find that out? 
7 
A. 
-- the people that -- I would say, maybe 
8 
was the end of 16, going on 17. And 
9 
think, was 21, 20. 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
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9 
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14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. 
But on the other hand, you told me that 
was taking her to Mr. Epstein's? 
A. 
Correct. But I wasn't aware of that. I was 
at work. 
Q. 
So I thought you -- so the only way you know 
that 
was taking her to Epstein's is something 
somebody told you at some point later in time? 
A. 
No, because in the very beginning when 
met Mr. Epstein through 
and this girl, 
because Mr. Epstein needed additional help at his 
estate. 
Q. 
Well, somebody told you that, right? Somebody 
told you that Mr. Epstein needed additional help? 
A. 
Yeah, my daughter did. She says -- she was 
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very excited that 
M 
I and 
brought her to 
2 
this estate and she was going to have a job. 
3 
Q. 
So this is the story that your daughter told 
4 
you? 
5 
A. 
Absolutely. 
6 
Q. 
So you had -- you and 
aunt wanted 
7 
and your daughter not to see each other? 
8 
A. 
Right. But I didn't know. 
9 
Q. 
So you told her not to hang around with 
10 
A. 
Right. Because he was much older than she 
11 
was. 
12 
Q. 
So you never physically were present to see 
13 
pick her up and take her anywhere? 
14 
A. 
I really can't say that because I know 
15 
sometimes he borrowed my car to take her. 
16 
Q. 
Let's see now. You just told me that you 
17 
didn't want 
and your daughter to hang out. You 
18 
told your daughter not to hang out with him? 
19 
A. 
Yeah. But that was prior -- that was prior 
20 
to -- that was prior to us declaring that we didn't want 
21 
them to hang out. 
22 
Q. 
What was prior to you declaring that you 
23 
didn't --
24 
A. 
That 
had taken 
to Jeff Epstein's 
25 
a couple of times in my car. 
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PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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2 
3 
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5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. 
Did there come a time that your daughter told 
you a different story about what was going on when she 
went to Mr. Epstein's? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Right up until today? 
A. 
I'll be honest with you. The way I found out 
is when an FBI agent knocked on my door. 
Q. 
Okay. And when did that happen? 
A. 
We were living at the trailer then, so it was 
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2 
somewhere 
trailer 
in the time that we were 
Page 128 
living at this 
, a man and a woman 
3 
came to the house. And they told me I couldn't even 
4 
listen to the conversation, it had nothing to do with 
5 
me, it pertained to my daughter. 
6 
Q. 
So who was present at this meeting? 
7 
A. 
A woman, a man and my daughter. And they said 
8 
they were from the FBI. 
9 
Q. 
And did you participate in this conversation? 
10 
A. 
No, I didn't, sir. They wouldn't let me. 
11 
Q. 
Well, they said you couldn't participate, but 
12 
were you --
13 
A. 
No, I wasn't. I was in the house. 
14 
Q. 
How old was your daughter at the time? 
15 
A. 
Oh, this just -- it happened while we were at 
16 
the trailer, so it was probably about -- maybe a year 
17 
and a half ago. 
18 
Q. 
She was over 18 by then? 
19 
A. 
Yeah, uh-huh, I think so. 
20 
Q. 
And that's the first time that you suspected 
21 
22 
that something different was going on than cleaning the 
house? 
23 
A. 
That's the first time I found out something 
24 
different was going on. 
25 
Q. 
And how did you find it out, if you weren't 
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present in that meeting? 
2 
A. 
Because when they were done with my daughter, 
3 
I specifically asked these people. And they said they 
4 
had to talk to her about Jeffrey Epstein. So that's the 
5 
person she worked for, so I just assumed being the 
6 
brilliant person I am that, you know, something more is 
7 
going on. 
8 
Q. 
Okay. But did these -- did these two people 
9 
that you've identified as FBI agents tell you anything 
10 
else was going on? 
11 
A. 
No, I don't recall them. 
12 
Q. 
Did your daughter ever tell you anything else 
13 
was going on? 
14 
A. 
That's when my daughter spilled the beans. 
15 
And she told me she was going to Mr. Epstein's and she 
16 
was bringing girls there from 
school and she'd get 
17 
paid a hundred dollars for every girl she brought there, 
18 
plus she would get $300. And that's when she told me 
19 
that what was going on, because she felt like it didn't 
20 
matter now because she hadn't been over there for, you 
21 
know, for a -- you know, a year or two years, whatever 
22 
it was, a year. So, I mean, it was like water under the 
23 
bridge. And that's when 
told me. 
24 
And she goes, Mom, the negligees, and he took 
25 
pictures of me. 
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And I said, well, what do you mean? 
2 
And 
took pictures of her and this Maxine 
3 
or Max -- Max -- I don't know, but all's I know it was 
4 
Max something. 
5 
Q. 
Maxine what? What was she saying about this 
6 
Maxine person? 
7 
A. 
That -- that this Maxine person would take 
8 
pictures and 
would -- she modeled for them. 
9 
And she said, Mom, that's why, you know, that 
10 
different lingerie -- it was just, like, you know, stuff 
11 
like that. 
12 
And I said, well, what's this massage book 
13 
about? 
14 
And that's when she told me. 
15 
Q. 
Told you what? 
16 
A. 
That's when 
actually admitted to me 
17 
that 
would put on these little outfits and 
18 
Jeffrey Epstein would ejaculate in front of her. 
19 
Q. 
Is that what she told you? 
20 
A. 
Uh-huh. 
21 
Q. 
Now, is this all in this immediately following 
22 
the occasion that the --
23 
A. 
FBI came. 
24 
Q. 
-- two people from the FBI? So it happened 
25 
right after that meeting on the same day? 
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A. 
That's -- well, pretty much so, yeah. That's 
2 
when I questioned 
. And I said, could you please 
3 
tell me what's really going on? What kind of trouble 
4 
are you in? 
5 
And she said, Mom, I'm not in no trouble. 
6 
I said, well, what is this all about? 
7 
And that's when 
told me. She says, 
8 
you know that place you took me to with Jeffrey Epstein 
9 
and you met him and his nice car? Well, that's Jeffrey 
10 
Epstein and he took pictures of me. 
11 
Q. 
Did she tell you anything more about other 
12 
than just that he, quote, took pictures of me? 
13 
A. 
No. He would do sex acts with some other 
14 
girl. I guess it was his wife. 
15 
Q. 
Sex acts -- when she said pictures, did she 
16 
describe anything more about the pictures, what her 
17 
state of dress was, whether she was in lingerie? 
18 
A. 
No. Just that she was in lingerie and 
19 
sometimes she wasn't. And he would go into a bath --
20 
guess this room was a bathroom or something and Jeffrey 
21 
would just come out with a towel wrapped around him. 
22 
And then one time he asked her to sit on him 
23 
or -- I don't know -- sit on him or something. And 
24 
-- I don't know whether she did or didn't 
25 
because I was really getting disgusted and sick to my 
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stomach. 
2 
Q. 
Well, back to the pictures. You said 
3 
sometimes she said she was in lingerie and sometimes she 
4 
wasn't? 
5 
A. 
Yeah. 
6 
Q. 
Meaning, what was she in, if she wasn't in the 
7 
lingerie? 
8 
A. 
I guess she was nude. 
9 
Q. 
Did she tell you she was nude or she just said 
10 
she was in some other outfit? 
11 
A. 
No. She just said that just sometimes she was 
12 
in lingerie and she wasn't. 
13 
Q. 
Did she tell you she was nude? 
14 
A. 
Honestly, I don't recall. 
15 
Q. 
How about these other pictures that you claim 
16 
that either 
or this Maxine -- did she claim that 
17 
or Maxine took pictures of her? 
18 
A. 
Yeah. 
19 
Q. 
And what did she say her state of dress was 
20 
for that? 
21 
A. 
She was wearing a -- she said she was wearing, 
22 
like, lingerie-type clothing. 
23 
Q. 
Is that for both the pictures that 
took 
24 
and the pictures that allegedly --
25 
A. 
Honestly, I'm not sure. 
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Q. 
-- Maxine took? 
2 
Did she ever tell you that she was ever --
3 
anybody took any picture of her when she was naked or is 
4 
that just the assumption you made? 
5 
A. 
I don't recall her telling me that. 
6 
Q. 
And then -- so have you now told me everything 
7 
she told you about anyone taking pictures of her? 
8 
A. 
As -- yeah. 
9 
Q. 
And then you said 
did she say that she gave 
10 
massages to Mr. Epstein? 
11 
A. 
Yeah. That's why he was sending her massage 
12 
books because --
13 
Q. 
Did she describe those massages at all to you? 
14 
A. 
She told me she didn't want to discuss it with 
15 
me because it would hurt me. 
16 
Q. 
So she didn't tell you about it? 
17 
A. 
No. She just said that she was -- that she 
18 
would give Jeffrey massages. 
19 
Q. 
Then you say she said that -- what did she 
20 
tell you about what Mr. Epstein --
21 
A. 
I asked her what she massaged. 
22 
Q. 
Okay. And what did she say? 
23 
A. 
She says, Mom, I don't want to get into it. 
24 
You know enough. 
25 
Q. 
Did you ever push at any time after that to 
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find out more? 
2 
A. 
No. 
3 
Q. 
Then you say Mr. Epstein would ejaculate? 
4 
A. 
Yes. 
5 
Q. 
What did she specifically say about that? 
6 
A. 
He would jerk himself off --
7 
Q. 
Okay. Did she tell you --
8 
A. 
-- while 
took pictures. 
9 
Q. 
Of who? 
10 
A. 
Honestly, I'm not sure. 
11 
Q. 
Did she tell you anything else about the 
12 
massages? 
13 
A. 
No. But she did tell me that occasionally 
14 
there was other men that were present. And whether it 
15 
was a one-on-one with that man and her or however it 
16 
worked, I don't know, but my daughter didn't tell me 
17 
specifics. 
18 
Q. 
Did she say she was involved with other men? 
19 
A. 
Jeffrey Epstein brought people there, I guess, 
20 
yeah. 
21 
Q. 
But was she telling you -- what was she 
22 
telling you about the other men as it related to her? 
23 
A. 
Oh, that the phone call, I guess, the phone 
24 
calls that I was getting for 
to meet at the 
25 
house was because there was men, I guess, other men 
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flying in from somewhere and they wanted -- I guess 
2 
Jeffrey Epstein set a date up for 
and the other 
3 
man. 
4 
Q. 
You keep saying, you guess. Do you not know? 
5 
A. 
Well, sir, it's only what I heard. I don't 
6 
know for surely. I wasn't there. 
7 
Q. 
It's not something you know. All right. 
8 
Did your daughter tell you on any occasion she 
9 
went and there was some male person there 
10 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
11 
Q. 
What did she tell you about that? 
12 
A. 
She just told me that there was another --
13 
another -- she had to meet one of Jeffrey Epstein's 
14 
friends. 
15 
Q. 
When she said, meet, what was she telling you? 
16 
What do you mean, meet one of Jeffrey Epstein's friends? 
17 
A. 
She just told me that she had to meet one of 
18 
Jeffrey Epstein's friends at the house. 
19 
Q. 
What did she tell you happened when -- did she 
20 
tell you that she actually met this person? 
21 
A. 
Yeah. 
22 
Q. 
What did she tell you happened when she met 
23 
this person? 
24 
A. 
Honestly, I don't remember because I was just 
25 
totally disgusted by the whole situation. 
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Q. 
Did she claim that she had performed a massage 
2 
on someone other than Mr. Epstein? 
3 
A. 
Yes. In Mr. Epstein's presence, yes. 
4 
Q. 
So she told you specifically that there was an 
5 
occasion that she went to Mr. Epstein's house and 
6 
performed a massage on some other man and Mr. Epstein 
7 
was present? 
8 
A. 
Yes. 
9 
Q. 
Did she tell you anything about that massage? 
10 
A. 
No. 
11 
Q. 
Did she tell you whether or not that happened 
12 
on any occasion more than this one occasion? 
13 
A. 
Well, I know 
also told me about 
14 
something about two girls and Mr. Epstein observed it. 
15 
Q. 
What did she tell you about two girls? 
16 
A. 
Well, actually I think Mr. Epstein, I guess 
17 
his wife -- I guess it was his wife is what she told me, 
18 
that he -- Mr. Epstein wanted 
and his wife to 
19 
perform sexual acts on each other. 
20 
Q. 
Did she say what acts? 
21 
A. 
Honestly, I said, please don't go any further 
22 
because it's turning my stomach. 
23 
Q. 
Did she tell you whether she, in fact, engaged 
24 
in any sexual act with this per --
25 
A. 
No. 
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Q. 
She didn't tell you or she said she didn't? 
2 
A. 
No, I didn't say she didn't. I don't know 
3 
because my daughter knew I was not feeling easy with the 
4 
situation. And she already knew that I was diagnosed 
5 
being sick, and my daughter just didn't want to put any 
6 
more on my head. 
7 
Q. 
Okay. Did she tell you anything else about 
8 
going over to Mr. Epstein's, other than what you've told 
9 
me thus far? 
10 
A. 
No. 
11 
Q. 
Did she tell you how much she was getting paid 
12 
for each of these visits? 
13 
A. 
After -- when the FBI, I found out she was 
14 
getting $300 per session. And every time she brought a 
15 
friend there he would pay a hundred to $200 to her, just 
16 
like a finder's fee. 
17 
Q. 
And you say the FBI told you that? 
18 
A. 
No. I said 
did. 
19 
Q. 
Okay. 
20 
And she told you she was bringing people from 
21 
the 
school? 
22 
A. 
Yes. 
23 
Q. 
Did she ever tell you who she brought? 
24 
A. 
No. 
25 
Q. 
Did she ever tell you anything more about 
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this -- who was this person that you said that --
2 
A. 
3 
Q. 
Yeah, 
• Did she tell you anything 
4 
more about this 
MI 
person? 
5 
A. 
I met 
IIIII quite -- a very, very nice 
6 
girl, very attractive. And I don't -- I don't know what 
7 
happened to 
II because she was, like, there one 
8 
day and gone the next. 
9 
And then I guess 
talked to somebody or 
10 
talked to somebody and they told me that Jeffrey 
11 
Epstein sent her somewhere to go to school to increase 
12 
her knowledge in, I guess, physical therapist then. 
13 
And then I heard she got married to 
14 
somebody -- I don't remember where they told me she got 
15 
married. And that's where she is, but... 
16 
Q. 
Have you had any other contact with 
17 
Mr. Epstein, other than what you've described 
18 
A. 
No, uh-uh. 
19 
Q. 
-- in this deposition? 
20 
A. 
No. 
21 
Q. 
Now, your daughter told you these things, 
22 
whatever day it was the FBI came by, and you think that 
23 
was around a year ago? 
24 
MR. 
: No. Object to the form. 
25 
MR. LUTTIER: Did I get that wrong? 
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BY MR. LUTTIER: 
2 
Q. 
Refresh my memory. About how long ago do you 
3 
think this meeting was with the FB --
4 
A. 
Oh, I don't know. All's I could tell you is 
5 
exactly it was the time we were living in this trailer. 
6 
Q. 
The one you're in now or --
7 
A. 
Uh-huh. 
8 
Q. 
All right. Was the statement recorded, do you 
9 
know? 
10 
A. 
I couldn't tell you, sir. 
11 
Q. 
Were they in a separate room from where you 
12 
were? 
13 
A. 
Sir, they were sitting outside on my patio. 
14 
was in the house. 
15 
Q. 
For the entire conference? 
16 
A. 
Yes, sir. 
17 
Q. 
And you say it was a man and a woman? 
18 
A. 
Yes, sir. 
19 
Q. 
Black? White? 
20 
A. 
Sir, I don't remember. 
21 
Q. 
To the best of your knowledge, were there any 
22 
other meetings with the FBI? 
23 
A. 
Sir, I don't know. 
24 
Q. 
Has your daughter discussed it? Other than 
25 
the discussion you had with her immediately following 
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her meeting with the FBI, have you had any other 
2 
discussions with her 
3 
A. 
No, sir. 
4 
Q. 
-- about Jeffrey Epstein? 
5 
A. 
No, sir. 
6 
Q. 
Right up until today? 
7 
A. 
No. Because she knows the way I feel about 
8 
it. 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-4717-0728-ef54d20436cf 
3506-001 
Pagc 140 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006263 
EFTA00158156