EFTA00158017

PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-471743728-ef54d20436cf 
3506-001 
Page 81 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006204 
EFTA00158097

PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98.21e8e8-101b-471743720-ef54d20436cf 
3506-001 
Page 82 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006205 
EFTA00158098

PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
08.21e8e8-101b-47(743720-ef54d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 83 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006206 
EFTA00158099

Page 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
Q. 
All right. For example, she told you this 
8 
fellow, 
, was an age that he wasn't? 
9 
A. 
Correct. 
10 
Q. 
And she obviously knew how old he was, right? 
11 
MR. 
: Object to the form. 
12 
THE WITNESS: I don't know that to be true. 
13 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
14 
Q. 
And she knew that you would disapprove with 
15 
her hanging around with him if he was much older than 
16 
her? 
17 
A. 
Oh, absolutely she'd know that. 
18 
Q. 
Because you told her that, right? 
19 
A. 
She knows that. 
20 
Q. 
And when you said that he was a player, what 
21 
exactly did you tell her about somebody that was a 
22 
player? What did you caution her about, if anything? 
23 
A. 
A smooth talker. 
24 
Q. 
I mean, right down graphically what did you 
25 
tell her about that, if anything else? 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-4717-6728-ef54d20436cf 
3506-001 
Page 84 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006207 
EFTA00158100

Page 85 
1 
A. 
I just told her to watch her step. 
2 
Q. 
Meaning, what? 
3 
A. 
He's a nice dresser. He's a smooth talker. 
4 
He likes to talk to this woman, talk to that girl, talk 
5 
to this girl, that girl, whatever. And I just consider 
6 
a person like that just to be a smooth talker. 
7 
Q. 
Did you tell your daughter anything other than 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
he was a smooth talker? 
A. 
No. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
08e1e8e8-101b-471743728-ef54d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 85 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006208 
EFTA00158101

PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47f7-0728-ef54d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 86 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006209 
EFTA00158102

Page 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
Q. 
Well, did there come a time that you were 
14 
suspicious that she was sexually active? 
15 
A. 
Was there a time? 
16 
Yeah, there was. 
17 
Q. 
And when was that? 
18 
A. 
That was after my concrete evidence of 
19 
being sexually active was after 
, we moved to 
20 
. And some people were calling me on my cell 
21 
phone to talk to 
and she got gifts in the mail, 
22 
negligees and a massage book. I clearly remember that. 
23 
Q. 
Did you ask her about those? 
24 
A. 
Yes, I did. 
25 
Q. 
What did she say? 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
08e1e8e8-101b-47(7-0720-ef54d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 87 of 187 
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Page 88 
1 
A. 
She told me that the man she was -- the 
2 
household, the man in the household that she was working 
3 
for in Palm Beach, she was doing ironing and cleaning, 
4 
is what I understood. But this man offered to send her 
5 
to school. 
6 
Q. 
And, so, is that all? You accepted that as a 
7 
response to your question? 
8 
A. 
Yeah. I can say I did at that point. 
9 
Q. 
So getting gifts of lingerie fit into that 
10 
description to you, that she was cleaning his house and 
11 
he was going to send her to massage school and that's 
12 
why she got gifts --
13 
A. 
It wasn't -- how can I explain? It wasn't 
14 
lingerie that came -- it came from, like, I understood 
15 
it was a wife that, you know, she goes to New York to 
16 
these -- she was a model or something and she went to 
17 
these nice places. And it wasn't like a -- like a 
18 
frilly negligee that I would consider something to be 
19 
sexual. It was just, like, you know. But, I mean, then 
20 
I thought it was nice that the wife thought of her like 
21 
that. 
22 
Q. 
Did your daughter tell you that she got these 
23 
gifts from some person's wife? 
24 
A. 
Yeah, she did. 
25 
Q. 
And you saw these gifts, correct? 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-4717-6728-ef54d28436d 
3506-001 
Page 88 of 187 
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EFTA00158104

Page 89 
1 
A. 
Absolutely. 
2 
Q. 
Did you open the packages when they came? 
3 
A. 
No. 
4 
Q. 
How is it you saw them? 
5 
A. 
It just so happened that one day I had been 
6 
there. The package came. And then I saw the book and 
7 
she said that this was -- came from the family she was 
8 
working for in Palm Beach, because they were going to 
9 
send her to school because she had discussed that she 
10 
wanted to be a massage therapist, because supposedly 
11 
that's what the wife did or something. 
12 
And 
said, Mom, there's good money in 
13 
this and they're willing to help me with school. And, 
14 
Lord knows, I couldn't afford it because I was 
15 
supporting three kids on my own. 
16 
And I said, 
, well, that's nice. And 
17 
honestly I didn't think anything of it because I house 
18 
clean and I've had my clients pull together to buy me a 
19 
car, you know, for compensation of helping them out and 
20 
things like that. So -- or they had allowed me to take 
21 
a small loan from them and pay them back a little bit 
22 
every week. 
23 
So I just -- I didn't really think anything 
24 
further into the picture because I knew that 
had 
25 
this job in Palm Beach. She was making money. She was 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98elette8-101b-47t7-b728.efS4d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 89 of 187 
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EFTA_00006212 
EFTA00158105

Page 90 
1 
coming home. She was coming home. She was fine. Her 
2 
attitude was fine. She was happy. And I didn't really 
3 
think much of it. 
4 
Q. 
Now, you began this area of discussion when I 
5 
asked you when was the first time you became suspicious 
6 
that your daughter had been sexually active. And this 
7 
is the event that you have described to us. 
8 
So what is it about this event that caused you 
9 
to wonder whether or not your daughter was sexually 
10 
active? 
11 
A. 
The way she started carrying herself. 
12 
Q. 
Was this before or after this event? You're 
13 
talking about an event where you -- she got gifts? 
14 
A. 
It was after this event. 
15 
Q. 
What do you mean by "carrying herself?" 
16 
A. 
I could kind of see her demeanor change where 
17 
she was now wearing low-cut blouses and tight pants. 
18 
And she was very -- very prevalent about she always had 
19 
to have make up on when she went to work and, you know, 
20 
that was, again, it just -- I don't know. Something 
21 
didn't seem right. 
22 
And then I questioned her. 
23 
And she said, no, Mom. I'm just cleaning 
24 
house, that where she cleans, I understood there was 
25 
several people that worked there, that there was, like, 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b4717-6728-ef54d28436d 
3506.001 
Page 90 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA _00006213 
EFTA00158106

Page 91 
1 
a crew, they had a cleaning crew, a cooking crew, and... 
2 
Q. 
Okay. Well, did there ever come another point 
3 
in time that you -- strike that. 
4 
Is there anything else about this conversation 
5 
that you had with her when she got these gifts that made 
6 
you think that she was perhaps sexually active, other 
7 
than the fact the way she carried herself? 
8 
A. 
No. 
9 
Q. 
Did there 
was there ever another time that 
10 
you questioned whether or not she was sexually active? 
11 
A. 
Yes. 
12 
Q. 
When was that? 
13 
A. 
I -- I guess the people, something happened 
14 
with the transportation because they would come and get 
15 
or 
would take her to her job because they 
16 
were kind of dating at that point, so I didn't think 
17 
anything of it. 
would take her to her job or the 
18 
people would send a car for 
19 
And, like I said, I didn't think anything of 
20 
it because I've had clients come and pick me, you know, 
21 
people that I worked for come and pick me up. 
22 
And then one day -- I don't know -- something 
23 
happened, but it was -- 
had to get to her job 
24 
and had to get to her job and I drove her there. 
25 
Q. 
And when was this? 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47174,7284d54d28436cf 
3506001 
Page 91 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006214 
EFTA00158107

Page 
1 
A. 
The exact date, I don't remember. I -- T 
2 
don't remember the exact date. 
3 
Q. 
Do you know what year it was? 
4 
A. 
No. No. 
-- it all evolves in the 
5 
time between maybe 15. Maybe 15. 
6 
Q. 
Do you have any record of when this event 
7 
would have occurred --
8 
A. 
Do I have any record? 
9 
Q. 
-- when you drove her to this place? 
10 
A. 
No. I can't say I wrote it down. 
11 
Q. 
Well, did you create any record at any time 
12 
about it to pinpoint when it happened? 
13 
A. 
No. I remember it was a nice day. Time of 
14 
year, I can't remember. 
15 
Q. 
Did she ask you to take her there? 
16 
A. 
Yeah. She said if I take her there, her 
17 
employer would pay me for my travel, you know, to bring 
18 
her there, because I was very frugal about the way I 
19 
spent my money because I was supporting three children 
20 
by myself. 
21 
And I said, 
, I don't have, you know, _ 
22 
have to get through the week. And I remember not having 
23 
enough gas money to get there. 
24 
And I said, 
, I have gas, but what's in 
25 
my tank has to stay there. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47174,7284d54d28436d 
3506-001 
Page 92 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006215 
EFTA00158108

Page 
1 
So I dropped -- I went down there with 
2 
. I didn't pull in a driveway. I remember it 
3 
being on the street. 
4 
And then 
went in a driveway. 
5 
And then she said, Mom, I'll be right out. 
6 
They're going to give you money for gas so you don't 
7 
have to worry. 
8 
And I said, okay. 
9 
So -- and then she was taking, like, a minute, 
10 
so I started to proceed to walk in the driveway. 
11 
And then 
walked out and introduced me 
12 
to her employer. And I shook her employer's hand and 
13 
that was Jeffrey. And I shook his hand. He seemed like 
14 
a very nice person. He said that my daughter, you know, 
15 
was doing a wonderful job. And, you know, he asked 
16 
several -- you know, it was a huge house. I never was 
17 
inside, but there was, like, quarters in the back of it. 
18 
And I'm telling you there had be 20 beautiful cars that 
19 
were parked. 
20 
And I just said, well, 
, this is a good 
21 
deal, you know, you make good money in Palm Beach. I 
22 
would have liked to have had a cleaning job in Palm 
23 
Beach. 
24 
And I had asked, you know, -- and I said, 
25 
, you know, if they need help, let me know. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47t7-b728.efS4d28436cf 
3506001 
Page 93 of 187 
SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 
EFTA_00006216 
EFTA00158109

Page 94 
1 
And she said, no. 
2 
And I left 
there. 
3 
And the man -- Jeffrey said, you know, 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Mr. Epstein said, don't worry, we'll get your daughter 
home. You know, 
-- I think her name was 
she talks with a, I guess, a British accent -- came out 
and assured me that she would get my daughter home. 
So I said, okay. Thank you. And I went about 
my business. 
Q. 
Did anybody give you money on that occasion? 
A. 
Yeah. Yeah. 
Q. 
How much money did you get? 
A. 
I think $50, because I was totally amazed. 
But then I thought about it, well, these people are in 
Palm Beach, they have money. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
08e1e8e8-101b-471743728-ef54d28436cf 
3506-001 
Page 94 of 187 
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EFTA_00006217 
EFTA00158110

Page 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
Q. 
Who gave you the $50? 
9 
A. 
Mr. Epstein. 
10 
Q. 
Did you ever ask Mr. Epstein what your 
11 
daughter was doing? 
12 
A. 
Yeah. He told me she was ironing. She was 
13 
doing ironing work and the laundry. She was in part of 
14 
the laundry. 
15 
Q. 
Did you ever wonder about your -- how old did 
16 
you say your daughter was at this time? 
17 
A. 
She, I think, was about 16. 
18 
Q. 
Did you ever wonder about your daughter 
19 
working at age 16 doing this? 
20 
A. 
No. No. Because back in New York I worked 
21 
I lied and worked at Burger King at 15, so I didn't 
22 
think anything of it. My daughter is 16 working. And 
23 
before that when I was in high school, I used to work 
24 
and clean houses for the elderly people because I had 
25 
such good grades. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98elette8-101b4M-b728.efS4d28436cf 
3506001 
Page 95 of 187 
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EFTA00158111

Page 96 
1 
Q. 
Did your -- did your daughter -- did you take 
2 
your daughter to this location on any other occasion? 
3 
A. 
Maybe two other times. And it was only she 
4 
was running in to get her pay. 
5 
Q. 
And how much was her pay? 
6 
A. 
$300. 
7 
Q. 
And that was supposed to be for how long? 
8 
A. 
Honestly, I don't know. I don't know. 
9 
Q. 
Did you know how much she was getting? 
10 
A. 
No. 
11 
Q. 
Did you ask her? 
12 
A. 
Yeah. 
13 
Q. 
And what did she tell you? 
14 
A. 
Well, a couple of times she told me she was 
15 
getting a hundred dollars. And then she told me on 
16 
several -- well, I guess, at one point Mr. Epstein, I 
17 
guess, some of his help was going somewhere and asked 
18 
if she could bring anybody to work. And as a 
19 
matter of fact, I was very big in church back then and : 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
had asked one of the church sisters if she needed to 
make money to go, you know, that this Mr. Epstein was 
looking for other help. Because I was too busy, you 
know, so I gave it to somebody else. 
Q. 
So did the nun go? 
A. 
She wasn't a nun. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-4717-6728-ef54d28436d 
3506-001 
Page 96 of 187 
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EFTA_00006219 
EFTA00158112

Page 
1 
Q. 
Or a sister, you referred to it? 
2 
A. 
I call her my sister. Yes, she did. 
3 
Q. 
And what was her name? 
4 
A. 
5 
Q. 
what? 
6 
A. 
Do you want the truth? I don't remember her 
7 
last name. 
8 
Q. 
So 
went over there --
9 
MR. 
: Yes, he wants the truth. 
10 
THE WITNESS: I don't remember her last name. 
11 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
12 
Q. 
So 
went over there and did some -- what_ 
13 
was it? -- ironing? 
14 
A. 
went over there with her -- with her 
15 
her niece. 
16 
Q. 
And did they ever contact you after that and 
17 
tell you what they did? 
18 
A. 
Well, 
said she left, but she left her 
19 
niece there, because I think 
drove her niece there 
20 
was the whole thing. But I wasn't close with her niece 
21 
to have, like, a -- I didn't have her phone number, she 
22 
didn't have mine and everything was through 
You 
23 
know, and I said to 
, you can go ahead and go 
24 
there. 
25 
And 
-- I got the directions because 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47(7-0720-ef54d20436cf 
3506-001 
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1 
2 
3 
Page 98 
that British lady called. I know he was looking for 
help and 
couldn't go one day and that's why I 
think I called Sister 
in a hurry and said, do you 
4 
want to make some money, that this guy had people coming 
5 
in and they needed extra help. 
6 
And then 
called me and told me that she 
7 
left there but she left her niece there. 
8 
Q. 
Now, when you say, Sister 
that's not 
9 
really your sister? 
10 
A. 
No. No. No. No. No. It's church term. 
11 
Q. 
What church is it that you --
12 
A. 
13 
Q. 
Okay. And did 
ever contact you after 
14 
15 
that and tell you anything about the work that her niece 
did? 
16 
A. 
Did she? No. She just said -- 
just, 
17 
said that her niece said it wasn't -- you know, it 
18 
wasn't for her. And 
said she left her there and, 
19 
you know, that was it, that it just wasn't for her. Sc 
20 
that's what I understood. 
21 
Q. 
So did you ever ask your daughter how she 
22 
why she was getting paid $300? 
23 
A. 
Did I ever ask her? No. 
24 
Q. 
How much were you making cleaning places at 
25 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8e8-101b-47174,7284•454d28436d 
3506-001 
Page 98 of 187 
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Page 99 
1 
A. 
How much was I making back then? 
2 
Q. 
Yeah. 
3 
A. 
Oh, I got 40 to $50 a condo. I could do 
4 
three, four condos in a day, five condos. I'd make $300 
5 
in a day. 
6 
Q. 
It's work all day though? 
7 
A. 
250 -- yeah. 
8 
Q. 
And your daughter wasn't working all day at 
9 
this place, was she? 
10 
A. 
I have no idea because I was busy working. 
11 
Q. 
Well, you took her and dropped her off and --
12 
A. 
That's all I did. 
13 
Q. 
-- you don't know when she got home? 
14 
A. 
No, I don't. 
15 
Q. 
Did you ask her anything more about it? 
16 
A. 
No. Honestly, I didn't. 
17 
Q. 
Did you have any other contact with 
18 
Mr. Epstein, other than the time that you were there and 
19 
you claim he said she was ironing? 
20 
A. 
Only on the phone. 
21 
Q. 
And what contact did you have with him on the 
22 
phone? 
23 
A. 
They would call and make an appointment. 
24 
Q. 
Who is the "they?" 
25 
A. 
Some -- it begins with an M -- Maxine or 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98elette8-101b-47174,728-4454d28436d 
3506-001 
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Page 100 
1 
somebody. 
2 
Q. 
Is this with Mr. Epstein? 
3 
A. 
Yes, Max -- Maxine. Could that be her 
4 
Q. 
Well, Mr. Epstein is Jeffrey Epstein? 
5 
A. 
I know, but he had secretaries. 
6 
Q. 
No. My question is: Did you ever have any 
7 
other direct contact with Jeffrey Epstein? 
8 
A. 
Oh, Jeffrey Epstein called my phone and said 
9 
he --
10 
Q. 
Did you talk to him? 
11 
A. 
Yes, I did. 
12 
Q. 
Okay. When was that? 
13 
A. 
I don't know exactly when it was, but he just 
14 
called to leave a message for 
and tell her that 
15 
he would appreciate it if she could come in at like 3:00 
16 
at one day. And then another day that he was having 
17 
company coming over and if she could make it, you know, 
18 
at a different time. And it just like an appointment 
19 
thing. 
20 
Q. 
Was this a direct phone conversation you had 
21 
with him where you exchanged words or is this just some 
22 
message left on a machine? 
23 
A. 
Oh, no. No. We exchanged words. 
24 
Q. 
And you said, sure, no problem? 
25 
A. 
Yeah. Because 
at that time didn't 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
Electronically signed by Sandra Townsend (401 
98e1e8eS-101b-47ff-b728-ef54d28436d 
3506-001 
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EFTA_00006223 
EFTA00158116