EFTA01137794

Page 622 
1 
statements. 
2 
But defending a client against charges, 
3 trying to minimize the charges, are made by all 
4 lawyers, and were made by all the lawyers in this 
5 case, and have been made by you in cases. I'm sure 
6 if I go back, I will find them. 
7 
Q. 
Okay. 
8 
MR. EDWARDS: I have a document we'll mark 
9 
as -- what's the next consecutive exhibit? 
10 
COURT REPORTER: Number 23. 
11 
(Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 
12 
Exhibit 23.) 
13 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Will you mark 
14 
that as 22 so we don't forget? 
15 
MR. SIMPSON: Yes. 
16 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
17 
Q. 
Can you look at the document that we've 
18 marked as number 23? 
19 
A. 
Yes. 
20 
Q. 
My only question is going to be, did you 
21 go to that speaking engagement that was scheduled? 
22 
MR. INDYKE: I didn't hear the question. 
23 
This is Darren. 
24 
MR. EDWARDS: I've shown him a document, 
25 
and it is a public document about a scheduled 
EFTA01137954

Page 623 
1 
speaking engagement for Mr. Dershowitz, and I'm 
2 
just asking him whether or not he gave that 
3 
speech. 
4 
A. 
I don't recall that I did. 
5 
MR. INDYKE: Thank you. 
6 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
7 
Q. 
Do you recall it being canceled or you not 
8 going? 
9 
A. 
I don't recall me doing that speech. 
10 
Q. 
Okay. Do you remember it being scheduled? 
11 
A. 
I remember -- I don't remember 
12 specifically, but I remember some general statement 
13 that I had some speeches scheduled, yeah. 
14 
MR. EDWARDS: Do we have an extra copy of 
15 
the Daily Mail article? I thought we --
16 
VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The 
17 
time is approximately 4:26 p.m. 
18 
(Recess was held from 4:26 p.m. until 4:29 p.m.) 
19 
VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 
20 
The time is approximately 4:29 p.m. 
21 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
22 
Q. 
Are you aware from any nonprivileged 
23 document or information that Jeffrey Epstein 
24 referred to sex with underage girls as massages, 
25 that that was a code word? 
EFTA01137955

Page 624 
1 
A. 
No 
2 
Q. 
In reviewing the message pads that were 
3 taken from his home and the public police report, 
4 have you been able to learn that fact? 
5 
A. 
I think it's false. I think it's a false 
6 fact. When I was offered a massage at Jeffrey 
7 Epstein's house, I received a legitimate massage by 
8 a professional masseuse who hurt me. And I called 
9 my wife and told her about it. I didn't enjoy it. 
10 And I've been told by numerous people that they have 
11 gotten ordinary massages, so I don't believe it was 
12 a code word. I think that's false. 
13 
Q. 
Who told that you that they got ordinary 
14 massages at Jeffrey Epstein's house? 
15 
A. 
People who were guests at the house. 
16 
Q. 
Exactly. 
17 
MR. INDYKE: I'm sorry? 
18 
A. 
My wife --
19 
MR. INDYKE: Can you repeat the question, 
20 
please. 
21 
MR. EDWARDS: Yes, I was just asked for 
22 
the identity of the people who have told 
23 
Mr. Dershowitz that they have received 
24 
legitimate massages at Jeffrey Epstein's home. 
25 
MR. INDYKE: I object to that question and 
EFTA01137956

Page 625 
1 
the response to the extent it would invade 
2 
privileges that we've already discussed, and 
3 
instruct Alan not to answer. 
4 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think you can 
5 
answer it outside the privilege. 
6 
A. 
Virtually everybody that -- when I was at 
7 Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm Beach, not in 
8 New York -- I never heard the word "massage" used in 
9 New York, but in Palm Beach, he would offer -- you 
10 would get an offer of massage, and people would 
11 accept it or not. But i never heard massage being 
12 anything other than an ordinary therapeutic massage. 
13 And I think it's insulting to professional massage 
14 therapists to assume that every massage -- I mean, 
15 it was like --
16 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
17 
Q. 
Maybe I communicated my question poorly. 
18 I was actually asking for the names of the people 
19 who told you --
20 
A. 
I told you my wife, my daughter, myself. 
21 I'll try to think of other names, but I remember 
22 people telling me that they had received massages at 
23 Jeffrey Epstein's house. 
24 
Q. 
Anybody outside of your immediate family? 
25 
A. 
Yes, but I'm having trouble remembering 
EFTA01137957

Page 626 
1 
specifically who they were. 
2 
Q. 
Okay. 
3 
MR. INDYKE: Outside of 
subject to not 
4 
privilege, you're saying? 
5 
A. 
Right, yeah. 
6 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
7 
Q. 
Do you remember speaking with the Daily 
8 Mail on or around January 21, 2015, and saying --
9 Dershowitz said the statements are all lies and "I 
10 never got a massage from anybody, it's made up out 
11 of whole cloth"? 
12 
A. 
No, I never said. 
13 
Q. 
If I showed you the statement, would it 
14 help refresh your recollection? 
15 
A. 
No, because it's false. I never said that 
16 I never got a massage because I said immediately 
17 from day one that I got one massage. I said that 
18 immediately. I described the massage. I might have 
19 been asked did I get a massage from 
20 
The answer would be no. Did I get massage 
21 during the relevant period of time? The answer 
22 would be no. 
23 
But I never stated, and I would challenge 
24 you to come up with -- no, with a tape recording of 
25 me saying that in full context because that's not 
EFTA01137958

Page 627 
1 
what I said. I've always said that I received one 
2 massage. I said that, I think, on day one. 
3 
And, again, you're dealing with the Daily 
4 Mail. The context would have to be did you get a 
5 massage from any underage girl or anything like 
6 that. I never said that. 
7 
Q. 
What does the quote say? 
8 
A. 
And, in fact, I said specifically that I 
9 kept my underpants on. I was very specific about 
10 the massage that it was -- I think it was a woman 
11 from a Russian background. I was very clear. So to 
12 say that I said that I never got a massage is just 
13 false. From day one, I said I got a massage. 
14 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You had another 
15 
question in the middle that. Go ahead. 
16 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
17 
Q. 
Right. What does the quote attributed to 
18 you in that article say? 
19 
MR. SIMPSON: The document hasn't even 
20 
been marked yet. 
21 
MR. EDWARDS: What are we up to, 24? 
22 
(Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 
23 
Exhibit 24.) 
24 
A. 
It doesn't show what the question was. It 
25 doesn't show the context. And like -- all lies. 
EFTA01137959

Page 628 
1 All lies. Obviously I was referring to 
2 
said and what '-
3 about me, so that was the "all lies." 
4 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
5 
6 massages? What are the words that are used? 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 Ms. Churchill? 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 say 
21 the 
22 got 
23 
24 
25 
what 
Q. 
I'm asking what is the quote about the 
said 
A. 
"I never got a massage from anybody, it's 
made up out of whole cloth." I did not say that. 
Q. 
Okay. So the reporter 
A. 
Is wrong. 
Q. 
is wrong? 
A. 
Who is the reporter? Is it the same 
So this is an article -- you said, again, 
the Daily Mail. This sounds like it's the Daily 
News, not the Daily Mail. 
Q. 
Okay. 
A. 
But it's not true. I never said in the 
context of generally massage. Because why would I 
that if I said it on television, I said it on 
radio, I've said it over and over again that I 
a massage? 
Q. 
You deny making the statement that was 
attributed to you in the Daily Mail article that's 
attached to the deposition as Exhibit 24? 
EFTA01137960

Page 629 
1 
A. 
That's right. 
2 
Q. 
Okay. It does say the Daily News. 
3 
A. 
Or -- now, let me be very clear. If I 
4 said it, I said it in the context of --
5 
4. 
Daily News. 
6 
A. 
If I said it, I said it in the context of 
7 
' massage or a massage during the 
8 relevant period because I never would say that I 
9 didn't get a massage when I got one, and I always 
10 said I did. 
11 
Go back and check earlier statements, 
12 statements before this, and you'll see that I said 
13 it. So what sense would it make for me to say that 
14 I didn't get it? 
15 
4. 
So is your testimony that you only had one 
16 massage at Mr. Epstein's home? 
17 
A. 
That's -- let me be very clear. I never 
18 had a massage in the New York place. I of course 
19 never had a massage in the -- in the ranch. I have 
20 no recollection of having a massage -- I never had a 
21 massage on airplane. And I had one massage in the 
22 Palm Beach home. 
23 
4. 
What year it was that you had the massage 
24 in the Palm Beach home? 
25 
A. 
I don't know, but I suspect it was in 
EFTA01137961

Page 630 
1 
very early in my friendship or my acquaintanceship 
2 with Jeffrey Epstein, probably '96 or '97, but I 
3 would be guessing. 
4 
It was not during the relevant time period 
5 because I was not in Jeffrey Epstein's -- my records 
6 show I was not in Jeffrey Epstein's home in Palm 
7 Beach during the relevant time period, so I couldn't 
8 have had a massage during that period. 
9 
Q. 
So is it your testimony, then, that the 
10 only massage -- we're getting some background from 
11 the phone. 
12 
MR. SIMPSON: On the phone, there's some 
13 
background. 
14 
MR. INDYKE: Am I the only one on the 
15 
phone? This is Darren. Because if I'm not 
16 
(Discussion off the record.) 
17 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
18 
Q. 
So is your testimony today that at any of 
19 Jeffrey Epstein's homes, you have only had one 
20 massage, and that was only at the Palm Beach home 
21 and it was sometime in the mid to later '90s? 
22 
A. 
No, let me be very clear. I know for 
23 absolute certainty I never had a massage in the 
24 New York home. I know for absolute certainty I 
25 never had a massage in the ranch. 
EFTA01137962

Page 631 
1 
I do recall having one massage in the Palm 
2 Beach home. I do know for certain that I never had 
3 a massage in the airplane. And I'm fairly certain I 
4 never had a massage at the -- on the island. 
5 
Q. 
And the one massage that you had at the 
6 Palm Beach home was sometime early in your 
7 relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, '96 or '97 
8 approximately? 
9 
A. 
I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. I 
10 just don't remember exactly when it was. But it 
11 
wasn't -- obviously it was when I was in his house, 
12 and the records show that I wasn't in his house 
13 during the relevant time period. 
14 
Q. 
Is it your memory, though, that it was in 
15 the '90s? 
16 
A. 
I can't remember. It could have been 
17 it could have been later. I know that when my 
18 children and grandchildren came to stay at Jeffrey 
19 Epstein's house in 2005, I think there was some 
20 massages that were -- oh, yeah, I think some of them 
21 had massages. I did not --
22 
Q. 
But --
23 
A. 
-- is my recollection. 
24 
Q. 
But your massage was many years before 
25 that experience in --
EFTA01137963

Page 632 
1 
A. 
I think so, but I'm not sure. It could 
2 have been later too. I just don't have any distinct 
3 chronological frame of reference for when I had a 
4 massage, but I do remember it very clearly and I 
5 remember that it was painful and I remember that the 
6 massage therapist wanted to put her knees on my 
7 shoulder, and I called my wife immediately after I 
8 had the massage and told her that this therapist 
9 wanted to put her knees on my shoulder and I said I 
10 wasn't really anxious to have that, because she had 
11 hurt me. She was a very deep therapy massage 
12 person. 
13 
Q. 
Have you seen Juan Alessi's testimony 
14 wherein he indicates that you had massages at 
15 Jeffrey Epstein's home? 
16 
A. 
Would you show it to me, please. 
17 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection and 
18 
instruction. 
19 
MR. SCOTT: Didn't we cover this with 
20 
Mr. Scarola the last time, the massage issue? 
21 
I could be wrong. 
22 
THE WITNESS: I was asked about it last 
23 
time. 
24 
MR. SCOTT: Last time I think I covered 
25 
this. 
EFTA01137964

Page 633 
1 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is this the 
2 
deposition from this matter? 
3 
MR. EDWARDS: The deposition that was in 
4 
the civil matters against Jeffrey Epstein, and 
5 
I think I've bracketed each of the pertinent 
6 
parts. 
7 
A. 
I don't see him saying more than one 
8 massage. It says, "Did he have massages sometimes 
9 when he was there? 
10 
"Yes. A massage was like a treat for 
11 everybody. If they wanted, we called the massage 
12 and they had a massage." 
13 
That doesn't sound to me like it's very 
14 specific. I was offered massages on numerous 
15 occasions by the house staff, and I said no. I did 
16 have that one massage. And then you have bracketed 
17 material about big dildos. That clearly refers to 
18 an area of the house that I was never in, never 
19 allowed into. Do you have any other brackets 
20 material? 
21 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
22 
Q. 
Not for this question. 
23 
A. 
So this is not any statement that I had 
24 massages or multiple massages, doesn't contradict 
25 what I said at all. He's testifying as to the 
EFTA01137965

Page 634 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 never dare to 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 didn't. 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
20 
Q. 
Okay. The question was: 
21 
22 
23 there? 
24 
25 sure." 
general procedure, and he's right, people were 
offered massages, and they were real massages, the 
ones that I know about. 
Q. 
Okay. Well --
A. 
Let me say this. Jeffrey Epstein would 
offer me an erotic massage. He would 
know that I would walk out of that room so fast, I 
would never speak to him again. He knows about my 
relationship with my wife. He knows how much I love 
her. He would never in a million years offer me 
anything that was in any way improper, and he 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Brad, you have 
five minutes before Jack smartly wants to get 
out of here, so if you want to look for an 
appropriate break. 
MR. EDWARDS: I'll finish after -- a few 
more questions on this, and then we're done. 
"Do you have any recollection of 
coming to the house when Prince Andrew was 
"ANSWER: It could have been, but I'm not 
EFTA01137966

Page 635 
1 
MR. INDYKE: Object 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
3 
Q. 
"QUESTION: When Mr. Dershowitz was 
4 visiting --
5 
"ANSWER: Uh-huh. 
6 
"QUESTION -- how often did he come? 
7 
"ANSWER: He came pretty -- pretty often. 
8 I would say at least four to five times a year. 
9 
"QUESTION: And how long would he 
10 typically stay? 
11 
"ANSWER: Two, three days. 
12 
"QUESTION: Did he have massages sometimes 
13 when he was there? 
14 
"ANSWER: Yes. A massage was like a treat 
15 for everyone. If they wanted, we'd call the massage 
16 and they have a massage." 
17 
He does indeed say that you stayed for two 
18 or three days at a time and had plural massages, 
19 right? That's his testimony. 
20 
A. 
No, he says I stayed for two or three 
21 days. 
He doesn't say I was there with 
22 
And he says -- first of all, English is 
23 not his first language, and he's talking about did 
24 you have massages. "Yes, a massage is a treat for 
25 everybody." 
EFTA01137967

Page 636 
1 
I was offered massages. I had one 
2 massage. Just -- I'm trying to think of something 
3 else he said. Can I see it again, please? 
4 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
5 
Q. 
The whole deposition? 
6 
A. 
Just that part of it. 
7 
The only time I stayed for -- he's right, 
8 I stayed for two or three days with my wife, my 
9 daughter-in-law, my son, and two grandchildren and 
10 my daughter. We stayed for about five days. 
11 Jeffrey Epstein was not in the house at that point 
12 in time. 
13 
He found out we were looking for a 
14 vacation place, and he offered his empty house with 
15 the housekeeper and his wife, and we stayed there 
16 during that period of time. 
17 
The only other time that I stayed for more 
18 than one day was when I was involved in the case 
19 with my research assistants. I stayed for two days 
20 once with my nephew, Adam, who was coming to watch a 
21 launch of the space shuttle. But I have no 
22 recollection of ever staying three days alone. 
23 There would be no reason I would do that. And I 
24 didn't. 
25 
4. 
While you were staying at the house, did 
EFTA01137968

Page 637 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Mr. Epstein have underage girls over to give him 
massages? 
A. 
Certainly not to my knowledge. If I had 
seen a single underage girl in that house that 
looked like she was there for any inappropriate 
person, I would have been out of there 
instantaneously. That would not be covered by the 
lawyer-client privilege. And I would have called 
the police and 
feel about sex 
Q. 
Even 
years old? 
A. 
I 
turned him in. That's how strongly 
with underage people, male or female. 
though these girls 
I 
were 14, 15, 16 
never saw -- not even though. 
Especially. Of course. A fortiori. I never saw 
anything like that, not on the airplane, not in the 
ranch, not on the -- in the island, not in Palm 
Beach, and not in New York. 
MR. SCOTT: It's 4:45. 
A. 
He did always travel with an entourage, 
and he had people in his encourage who looked like 
they were in their middle 20s. And, of 
Mr. Scarola tried to accuse me of being 
with an underage girl who turned out to 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
course, 
on an plane 
be 25. 
EFTA01137969

Page 638 
1 
Q. 
My last question, are you aware -- we can 
2 pick back up here off of my last question. Are you 
3 aware that another housekeeper, Alfredo Rodriguez, 
4 put you in the home at a time when underage girls 
5 were also in the home? 
6 
A. 
Would you please show me that? Because 
7 your last question was a mischaracterization 
8 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
9 
instruction. 
10 
A. 
-- so let me see this one as well. 
11 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
12 
Q. 
Sure. I'll just read it to you. 
13 
A. 
No, just let me see it. You can read it 
14 to me. Let me see it. 
15 
Q. 
"And did you have knowledge of" --
16 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: What are you 
17 
reading from? 
18 
MR. EDWARDS: Sure. It's the deposition 
19 
of Alfredo Rodriguez that was taken July 29, 
20 
2009. 
21 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
22 
Q. 
"Was there a lawyer from Harvard named 
23 Alan Dershowitz? 
24 
"Yes, ma'am. 
25 
"How often during the six months or so 
EFTA01137970

Page 639 
1 
2 
3 
when you were there was Alan Dershowitz there?" 
A. 
What were the six months, by the way? 
Q. 
I don't know. We'll find out from his 
4 
5 
employment with Jeffrey Epstein. Your client would 
know. 
6 
"Two or three times. 
7 
"How did you have knowledge of why he was 
8 
9 
visiting a -- and did you have knowledge of why he 
was visiting? 
10 
"No, ma'am. 
11 
12 
"Was he acting as a lawyer or there as a 
friend? 
13 
"ANSWER: I believe a friend. 
14 
15 
"Were there also young ladies in the house 
at the time he was there? 
16 
"ANSWER: Yes, ma'am. 
17 
18 
"And would those have included, for 
instance, 
and 
19 
"Yes, ma'am. 
20 
"Were there other young ladies there when 
21 Mr. Dershowitz was there? 
22 
"Yes, ma'am. 
23 
24 
"Do you have any idea who those young 
women were? 
25 
"No, ma'am. 
EFTA01137971

Page 640 
1 
"Were any of those young women that you 
2 have said came to give massages? 
3 
"Yes, ma'am." 
4  
 
"Ms. Esell, who was representing 
5 
at the time, asked you about Mr. Dershowitz 
6 being present in Mr. Epstein's home, and I think she 
7 said   and I think you said Mr. Epstein was -- and 
8 he and Mr. Dershowitz were friends? 
9 
"ANSWER: Yes. 
10 
"She also, I think, asked was 
11 Mr. Dershowitz ever there when one of the women who 
12 gave a massage was present in the home. 
13 
"ANSWER: I don't remember that. 
14 
"QUESTION: That's what I want to clear 
15 up. Is it your testimony that Mr. Dershowitz was 
16 there when any of the women came to Mr. Epstein's 
17 home to give a massage? 
18 
"ANSWER: Yes. 
19 
"QUESTION: And when Mr. Dershowitz was at 
20 the house, I understood you to say that these local 
21 Palm Beach girls would come over to the house while 
22 he was there, but you're not sure if he had a 
23 massage from any of the girls. 
24 
"ANSWER: Exactly. 
25 
"QUESTION: And what would he do while the 
EFTA01137972

Page 641 
1 
girls were in the house? 
2 
"He would read a book, glass of wine by 
3 the pool or stay inside." 
4 
So my question is, are you aware that 
5 Alfredo Rodriguez put you in Jeffrey Epstein's home 
6 when the underage girls were coming to his home to 
7 give massage? 
8 
A. 
Absolutely not. 
9 
MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form and 
10 
mischaracterizing and taking multiple separate 
11 
sections of a deposition and multiple different 
12 
pages read as though they were together. 
13 
Object to the form. 
14 
A. 
I'll answer. He talks about young 
15 ladies --
16 
MR. SWEDER: I'm going to object to that, 
17 
too. This is Mr. Sweder. That is a misleading 
18 
reading of that deposition, leaving out a very 
19 
particular part of it --
20 
MR. EDWARDS: Okay. The whole 
21 
deposition --
22 
MR. SWEDER: -- that says that he didn't 
23 
know whether Dershowitz ever even saw these 
24 
young women. 
25 
MR. SCOTT: We covered this all in the 
EFTA01137973