EFTA01137794

Page 482 
1 
2 
3 
4 
And on the next page, two of them say 
yes 
These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is 
Q. 
that correct? 
5 
A. 
I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see 
6 
November 2000. Could you remind me of 
7 
birthday. 
8 
Q. 
9 
A. 
So she would be 
at this 
10 
time. 
11 
Q. 
So she's traveling as a passenger under 
12 
the age of 18? That's my question. 
13 
A. 
Under the age of 18, but the age of 
14 consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17 
15 
and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my 
16 
recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17. 
17 
And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the 
18 answer to the question is she underage might well be 
19 no. 
20 
4. 
My question was, is there nonprivileged 
21 information that would indicate the truth or falsity 
22 of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey 
23 Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under 
24 the age of 18? 
25 
A. 
I do not know of any statement that she 
EFTA01137814

Page 483 
1 
said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my 
2 mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as 
3 distinguished from when she was underage. So you 
4 would have to show me. If the statement was below 
5 the age of 18, that would be correct. If the 
6 statement would be underage, that would be more 
7 questionable. 
8 
Q. 
Do you know the purpose for which she was 
9 traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights 
10 indicated on those logs? 
11 
A. 
I do not. 
12 
MR. SCOTT: Privileged. 
13 
MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product, 
14 
attorney-client, common interest. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
Your answer is "I do not"? 
17 
A. 
I do not. 
18 
Q. 
You have not ascertained from any source, 
19 is what you're telling us, the purpose for her 
20 travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct? 
21 
MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection 
22 
and instruction. 
23 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
24 
Q. 
You are unable to answer, or you have not? 
25 
A. 
I have been instructed not to answer. 
EFTA01137815

Page 484 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Q. 
I misunderstood you. I thought you said 
earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know 
the purpose? 
A. 
I said that in answer to one question. 
You've asked me other questions. 
Q. 
Is there a legitimate purpose for her 
being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein? 
MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative. 
MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 
same instructions. 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
Q. 
Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly 
transport an individual who has not attained the age 
of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent 
that that individual engage in prostitution or in 
any sexual activity? 
A. 
I haven't read the statute clearly, but I 
think that's an accurate paraphrase of my 
understanding of the law, yeah. 
Q. 
Would you agree that that flight log in 
front of you indicates a federal crime was being 
committed against 
at the time when 
she has said a federal crime was being committed 
against her? 
A. 
Oh, absolutely not. 
EFTA01137816

Page 485 
1 
MR. INDYKE: Objection. 
2 
A. 
Does not prove a federal crime. 
3 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
4 
instruction. 
5 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
6 
Q. 
So that goes back to my last question. 
7 What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes 
8 that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute 
9 that I just read to you? 
10 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
11 
instruction. 
12 
A. 
I can give this answer. My understanding 
13 of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the 
14 prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit 
15 purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of 
16 proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime 
17 occurred. It would prove one element of that crime. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
Was she lying when she said that the 
20 purpose for which she was trafficked by Jeffrey 
21 Epstein was for sex? 
22 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
23 
instructions. 
24 
A. 
I've been instructed not to answer the 
25 question. 
EFTA01137817

Page 486 
1 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
2 
Q. 
You can't answer the question? 
3 
A. 
I can give you this information. Based on 
4 what her own friends have said in interviews that 
5 are not privileged, they categorically deny that she 
6 was trafficked. They claim that she willingly, 
7 voluntarily went on her own in order to earn money, 
8 that she showed off the money, that she was free to 
9 leave at any time, that she he had a boyfriend who 
10 she lived with at the time, that she went home every 
11 
night, and she was spending money like mad. That 
12 would not, in my view, fit the definition of 
13 trafficking. 
14 
Now, I certainly am sympathetic to her. 
15 She may very well have been abused at some early 
16 stage of her life, even before she met Epstein, and 
17 that abuse may have led her to live a life of lies. 
18 And one might be sympathetic to that, but it doesn't 
19 excuse her lying about me, the fact that she may 
20 have been abused. 
21 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward. 
22 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
23 
Q. 
Let me try to understand that which you 
24 are explaining right now, which is are you saying 
25 that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's 
EFTA01137818

Page 487 
1 
airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and 
2 or prostitution, that --
3 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
4 
instructions. 
5 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
6 
Q. 
-- she was not being sexually trafficked 
7 or would not be a victim of that statute? 
8 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
9 
instruction. 
10 
MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical 
11 
now based on his last statement. 
12 
MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical. 
13 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how 
14 
you framed it. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
Let me reframe it, then. 
17 
Assuming that -- I'll give you a 
18 hypothetical based on what you say her friends have 
19 told you, which is that she is free to leave while 
20 being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein. 
21 This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual 
22 purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a 
23 victim to sexual trafficking? 
24 
MR. SCOTT: Objection to form, 
25 
speculation, argumentative. Can you answer 
EFTA01137819

Page 488 
1 
that? 
2 
A. 
I can answer it. Since you gave me a 
3 hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I 
4 would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I 
5 would ask my students do you think it's trafficking, 
6 do you think a woman has been trafficked when she 
7 voluntarily, below the age of consent in some 
8 states, above the age of consent in other states, 
9 when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for 
10 money, free to leave at any time. 
11 
I think it would be an interesting 
12 classroom discussion about whether that constitutes 
13 trafficking. 
14 
That's a different question from whether 
15 or not that would violate the statute. That would 
16 violate the statute. But your question is, would it 
17 constitute trafficking. That would be a very 
18 interesting law school hypothetical. 
19 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
20 
Q. 
In your opinion, does it constitute 
21 trafficking? 
22 
A. 
I think the word "trafficking" is 
23 overused, and I think should be reserved for the 
24 kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for, 
25 people who have no choice, no options, whose 
EFTA01137820

Page 489 
1 
passports have been taken away, who have been forced 
2 and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct. 
3 
And I think it begins to weaken the very 
4 important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a 
5 volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was 
6 enjoying and spending money and has the option of 
7 leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her 
8 head, but that's my honest opinion. 
9 
Q. 
Does your answer to the hypothetical 
10 change if we rewind time to the beginning of her 
11 relationship with Jeffrey Epstein when she's 15 or 
12 16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction 
13 because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so, 
14 what's the cutoff? 
15 
A. 
Well, I think that age is relevant. 
16 
MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is 
17 
all hypothetical? 
18 
MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is. 
19 
A. 
Age is one of the relevant factors. It's 
20 not the only relevant factor. It's one of the 
21 relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was 
22 17, almost 18, 17 and a half. 
23 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
24 
Q. 
Let's get that right. That's when, 
25 November 2000? 
EFTA01137821

Page 490 
1 
A. 
We're talking about January 2001. 
2 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still 
3 
operating under the hypothetical? 
4 
MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said 
5 
that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in 
6 
this hypothetical, she turns 18 in August of 
7 
2001. 
8 
THE WITNESS: 2001, the same year. 
9 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
10 
Q. 
Was she lying when she said that 
11 Epstein --
12 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done 
13 
with the hypothetical? 
14 
MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are. 
15 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
16 
Q. 
-- engaged in sex with many underage 
17 girls? Was she lying when she said that? 
18 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
19 
instructions. 
20 
A. 
I can only say this. You --
21 
MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction? 
22 
A. 
There was an instruction, but I can answer 
23 without that. 
24 
You have accused me of having sex with 
25 many underage girls --
EFTA01137822

Page 491 
1 
MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as 
2 
nonresponsive to my question 
3 
A. 
-- based on no evidence whatsoever. 
4 
MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the 
5 
Motion to Strike. 
6 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the 
7 
rest of it. 
8 
A. 
So when you say "many," I need to know 
9 with some precision what you have in mind. 
10 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the 
11 
first part of it, the first part of his answer. 
12 
And if you can assist him in defining "many." 
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg, 
15 correct? 
16 
A. 
I've known him since 1959. 
17 
Q. 
And you are aware that he represented, I 
18 believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been 
19 victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you? 
20 
A. 
I recommended him for that job because I 
21 think so highly of him. 
22 
Q. 
And in his Complaints, are you aware that 
23 he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has 
24 a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are 
25 you aware of that? 
EFTA01137823

Page 492 
1 
MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to 
2 
the relevancy of all of this. 
3 
A. 
I'm not aware of that. 
4 
MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the 
5 
extent that Alan's answer requires him to 
6 
invade privilege, I would object and instruct 
7 
him not to answer. 
8 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the 
9 
confines of the privilege objection, if you can 
10 
answer. 
11 
A. 
I'm not aware that he said that. I 
12 haven't read his pleadings. 
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Okay. Are you aware that in his 
15 pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his 
16 resources and his influence over vulnerable minor 
17 girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern 
18 of sexually exploited behavior"? 
19 
A. 
I'm not aware. 
20 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
21 
instruction. 
22 
A. 
I was not involved in that aspect of the 
23 case. 
24 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
25 
Q. 
You were not involved in the facts part of 
EFTA01137824

Page 493 
1 
the case? 
2 
A. 
I was not involved in the compensation 
3 part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was 
4 involved in, I was not involved in. 
5 
MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment, 
6 
let's not go into the subject matter of your 
7 
representation, please. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
Q. 
Going back, was she lying when she says 
10 Jeffrey Epstein was for one of his birthdays sent 
11 three 12-year-old girls? Was she lying when she 
12 said that? 
13 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
14 
instruction. 
15 
A. 
I have absolutely no --
16 
MR. SIMPSON: You got an instruction. 
17 
A. 
Okay. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
Are you aware of in the Com laint where 
20 Bob Josefsberg initially represented 
21 
that Bob Josefsberg is the first to put that 
22 allegation in the Complaint? Were you aware of 
23 that? 
24 
A. 
Not aware of that, no. I wouldn't put --
25 
MR. SIMPSON: Please, just answer the 
EFTA01137825

Page 494 
1 
question. 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
3 
Q. 
In 2009, when that Complaint and that 
4 allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey 
5 Epstein never refuted that allegation in any 
6 pleading? 
7 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
8 
instruction. 
9 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
10 
Q. 
Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in 
11 2009? 
12 
A. 
Not in connection with that case. And I 
13 was not aware of what his response was, if any. 
14 
Q. 
Are you aware that  after that allegation 
15 was made by 
that Jeffrey Epstein 
16 paid money to settle her case? 
17 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
18 
instruction. 
19 
MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the 
20 
relevancy of this. 
21 
A. 
My understanding is that the plea bargain 
22 required him to make payments regardless of what his 
23 views may have been, that he was absolutely required 
24 to make those payments. He had no discretion. 
25 That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you 
EFTA01137826

Page 495 
1 
can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but 
2 that's my understanding of what it said, that he 
3 could not contest anything. 
4 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
5 
Q. 
You were one of the attorneys that 
6 represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with 
7 the United States Attorney's Office, right? 
8 
A. 
Right, along with Kenneth Starr --
9 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection. Objection. 
10 
A. 
No, I don't think you can object to that. 
11 These are people who are at the hearings, at the 
12 events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were 
13 at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not 
14 privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty 
15 Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz --
16 
MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive. 
17 
A. 
-- Jerry Lefcourt. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
I only asked if you were one of the 
20 lawyers. 
21 
A. 
I was one of them, yes. 
22 
Q. 
The answer is yes? 
23 
A. 
The complete answer is yes, but the rest 
24 of the people were part of the legal team. 
25 
Q. 
I will ask you when I want somebody else's 
EFTA01137827

Page 496 
1 
name. 
2 
Were you a part of the negotiations in 
3 October of 2007 when the special matter was 
4 selected? You remember that part? 
5 
A. 
Is the special master Josephsburg? 
6 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
7 
instruction. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
Q. 
Yes. 
10 
A. 
My recollection is that I was simply asked 
11 for a recommendation, but I played no further role. 
12 
Q. 
Were you aware that there was a joint 
13 letter to the special master created between Jeffrey 
14 Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's 
15 Office describing the investigation? 
16 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
17 
instruction. 
18 
A. 
I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no 
19 recollection of that. 
20 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
21 
Q. 
Was 
lying when she says 
22 that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey 
23 Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated? 
24 
A. 
I have no idea. 
25 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
EFTA01137828

Page 497 
1 
instruction. 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
3 
Q. 
If I show you the proposed joint letter to 
4 the special master, will it refresh your 
5 recollection? 
6 
A. 
I want to add to the last question. When 
7 I say I have no idea, I do know that she said that 
8 she was giving oral sex to Jeffrey Epstein while I 
9 stood next to him, and that is a total, categorical, 
10 absolute lie. So I know she lied about that. 
11 
MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as 
12 
nonresponsive. 
13 
A. 
But that's relevant to standing naked and 
14 being masturbated. 
15 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your 
16 
next question. 
17 
A. 
Yes. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
When I am asking for nonprivileged 
20 information or evidence that would give you  the 
21 ability to tell me whether 
is lying 
22 when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 
23 underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted 
24 between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United 
25 States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that 
EFTA01137829

Page 498 
1 
answer? Let me rephrase the question. 
2 
When I'm asking for nonprivileged 
3 information that you may have to demonstrate the 
4 truth or falsity of 
statement that 
5 she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 
6 underage, would you consider the joint letter to the 
7 special master evidence from which you could draw an 
8 answer? 
9 
MR. SCOTT: Objection. 
10 
A. 
I would have to know more about it than 
11 that. I would have to know the nature of the 
12 letter, the reason it was sent. 
13 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
14 
Q. 
Would you like to review the letter? Is 
15 that going to help you? 
16 
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's 
17 
seen the letter first. 
18 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
19 
Q. 
You were part of the team that was mainly 
20 negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct? 
21 
A. 
I was only negotiating the criminal part 
22 of the case. 
23 
Q. 
Okay. I'm going to show you the letter, 
24 and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that. 
25 If you've never seen it before, then tell me that. 
EFTA01137830

Page 499 
1 
I guess my first question is, have you 
2 seen it? 
3 
MR. INDYKE: I would object to that. 
4 
MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request 
5 
for this depo and future depositions, if they 
6 
are going to show exhibits to a witness, I 
7 
think we should be -- have a copy of them. 
8 
We provided copies to you of all exhibits 
9 
we used during the deposition of your client. 
10 
And I think if you're going to pull out 
11 
exhibits and have one, you should have at least 
12 
copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the 
13 
same thing, rather than having to run and make 
14 
a copy and all the rest of it. 
15 
MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be 
16 
unfamiliar with his and his legal team's 
17 
correspondence. 
18 
MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't 
19 
had any all day. So all I'm asking you, 
20 
Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits 
21 
that you intend to confront the witness with. 
22 
That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all 
23 
the questions laid out, so you know where we're 
24 
headed. There's a note on here. Do you want 
25 
that on there? 
EFTA01137831

Page 500 
1 
MR. EDWARDS: No. 
2 
MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet 
3 
notes. I don't know if you really want that on 
4 
there. 
5 
MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this 
6 
nonprivileged?" 
7 
MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit 
8 
going into evidence, right? Without your 
9 
notes? 
10 
MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked? 
11 
THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a 
12 
letter. 
13 
MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed 
14 
letter. I read the title exactly. 
15 
(Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit 
16 
19.) 
17 
A. 
This is not -- it's not familiar to me 
18 except that what I said previously that as part of 
19 the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he 
20 would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who 
21 chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my 
22 memory, but I have no recollection of actually 
23 seeing this draft, this proposed draft. 
24 
MR. SCOTT: That's number? 
25 
COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. 
EFTA01137832

Page 501 
1 
2 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
Q. 
Wouldn't you agree -- wasn't 
3 
4 
one of the listed victims to the 
nonprosecution agreement? 
5 
A. 
If so, I was not aware of. 
6 
7 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
instruction. 
8 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
9 
Q. 
As you sit here today, after having made 
10 
11 
many statements about 
being a 
serial liar --
12 
A. 
She is. 
13 
Q. 
-- you have no idea whether she was a 
14 listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement? 
15 
MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered. 
16 
17 
MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 
instruction. 
18 
19 
A. 
Right now, I have no recollection of 
whether she was listed or not. 
20 
BY MR. EDWARDS: 
21 
Q. 
Okay. 
22 
A. 
I know that the FBI tried to speak to her 
23 and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection. 
24 
MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 
25 
MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive. 
EFTA01137833