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have a cell phone or anything. 
2 
Q. 
And when did these conversations occur? 
3 
A. 
Exactly, I don't know when. It was just after 
4 
I knew that she had the job with him and stuff. 
5 
Q. 
Okay. So you were -- something about all this 
6 
made you suspicious that she was sexually active, is 
7 
8 
where I think we started the question. 
A. 
It wasn't so much about that. But then I 
9 
started question her because she would leave, you know, 
10 
and occasionally I'd see her come home and I'd say, 
11 
, you have, like, a such a low-cut blouse on. 
12 
And you got such short, short shorts. Why -- I don't 
13 
understand. 
14 
Oh, Mom, I changed when I got in the house. 
15 
Q. 
Anything else that made you suspicious? 
16 
A. 
She did come home sometimes and I smelled 
17 
alcohol on her breath. 
18 
And I said, your employer lets you drink? 
19 
was concerned about that. 
20 
Q. 
And what did she say? 
21 
A. 
She said, yeah. She says, the people in the 
22 
kitchen are real nice and she was allowed to go -- I 
23 
guess there was a certain refrigerator or something that 
24 
sometimes she'd go sit in the kitchen. And the cooks 
25 
would cook for her, too. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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Q. 
So what did you do? Did you pick up the phone 
2 
and call this person and say, I don't want my -- what 
3 
you said was a 15 year old daughter over there drinking? 
4 
A. 
I tried to get in touch with him. I remember 
5 
that. But I couldn't get through. 
6 
Q. 
Well, did you keep trying? 
7 
8 
A. 
Did I keep trying? Yeah. 
Q. 
Did you ever get in touch with him? 
9 
A. 
No. It was like the man vanished. 
10 
Q. 
Did you get in the car and drive over there? 
11 
A. 
Nobody answered the door. 
12 
Q. 
Did you get in your car and drive over there? 
13 
A. 
Yes, I did and nobody answered the door. 
14 
Q. 
What did you do? Tell me about this occasion 
15 
when you got in the car and drove over there. Who went 
16 
with you? 
17 
A. 
Nobody. I went by myself. 
18 
Q. 
And when was this? 
19 
A. 
It had to be after 
told me that her and 
20 
her niece weren't interested in working for him. 
21 
That's -- time of year, I don't really remember. But I 
22 
know it was daylight out. I don't remember the time. 
23 
Q. 
So what did you do? You went to the house? 
24 
A. 
Yeah, I tried to knock on the door but there 
25 
was so many doors I just didn't know where I was 
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knocking. 
2 
Q. 
What, did you knock on more than one door? 
3 
A. 
Yeah. 
4 
Q. 
Which door did you knock on? 
5 
A. 
There's a garage that had a big, long thing 
6 
here. And then there's a front door. And there's 
7 
another house because 
said something about this 
8 
house in the back. 
9 
Q. 
So how many doors did you knock on? 
10 
A. 
Three. 
11 
Q. 
And -- and you're telling me --
12 
A. 
Nobody answered. 
13 
Q. 
-- there was nobody there and nobody answered? 
14 
A. 
No. 
15 
MR. 
: Object to the form. 
16 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
17 
Q. 
So did you come across anybody on the grounds? 
18 
A. 
No. 
19 
Q. 
So what did you do next? 
20 
A. 
I got in my car and left. 
21 
Q. 
And for what purpose had you gone there on 
22 
that occasion? 
23 
A. 
Just because I think I wanted to know why he 
24 
allowed her to drink. 
25 
Q. 
Well, in fact, you were suspicious about what 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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was going on by then, weren't you? 
2 
A. 
Yeah, after 
told me she didn't want to 
3 
work for her and 
didn't have the heart to tell me, 
4 
I guess maybe she knew more of the story than I did at 
5 
that point. 
6 
Q. 
Did you ask 
anything else, why isn't it. 
7 
for your niece? 
8 
A. 
Yeah, I did ask 
9 
Q. 
And what did she say? 
10 
A. 
And 
just said her niece just said it 
11 
wasn't for her. 
12 
Q. 
Did you inquire further? 
13 
A. 
No. 
14 
Q. 
Did you -- by now if you're suspicious, did 
15 
you ask your daughter more about what was going on? 
16 
A. 
Yeah. 
17 
Q. 
And you said your daughter was always truthful 
18 
with you, right? 
19 
A. 
Yeah. So she said --
20 
MR. 
: Object to the form. 
21 
THE WITNESS: Yeah. 
22 
So she just said, no, Mom, we're working. 
23 
And I said, well, why -- your hours are 
24 
changing now. Like, I don't understand. You know, 
25 
you don't do a full day or whatever. 
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And she said, no. She said, Mom, his company 
2 
flies in all the time. 
3 
And sometimes I know that he's in New York, 
4 
so -- and she still -- she still goes over there, 
5 
you know. Because a couple times I knew he was in 
6 
New York because he called from New York. 
7 
called from New York and said she still had to go 
8 
to the house. 
9 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
10 
Q. 
Who called from New York? 
11 
A. 
I'm sorry? 
12 
Q. 
Who called from New York? 
? 
13 
A. 
Yeah. 
14 
Q. 
And did she talk to you? 
15 
A. 
Yeah. 
16 
Q. 
So you talked to 
? 
17 
A. 
I talked to 
18 
Q. 
And when did this conversation happen? 
19 
A. 
It was late in the afternoon. She said that 
20 
Jeffrey was coming in with some -- with some friends, 
21 
but 
needed to be over there, I guess, like, twc 
22 
hours or three hours before Jeffrey came in with the 
23 
people to make sure everything was, I guess, in place. 
24 
Q. 
And where was 
? Do you know whether or 
25 
not 
was, in fact, in Palm Beach calling you saying 
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2 
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19 
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21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
Page 106 
that Mr. Epstein was coming in and wanted your daughter 
to come over? 
A. 
Honestly, I don't know. 
Q. 
Okay. And by the way, when you're having 
these conversations with either the time that 
Mr. Epstein called or when you say you talked to 
did you ever ask them about -- more about what was going 
on? 
A. 
No. They informed me that she was cleaning 
and she was doing a good job. They were happy to have 
her. 
Q. 
Well, you told me that Mr. Epstein said she 
was ironing; is that right? 
A. 
She was ironing and she was in charge of, 
like, the ironing and the laundry. 
Q. 
Did you ever have any other conversation with 
Mr. Epstein where you asked him what was going on? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Did you have a conversation with 
whe' 
she called and asked her what was going on? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Did you ever directly confront your daughter 
about what was going on? 
A. 
No. 
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2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
Q. 
Now, by the time that she met 
and you 
17 
claim that she was going over to Mr. Epstein's house, 
18 
had you discovered that your daughter was using drugs? 
19 
A. 
I suspected it because I'll tell you what. 
20 
and this girl, 
this girl, 
21 
and 
, because 
and 
used to 
22 
drive over there a lot. 
23 
Q. 
Over where? 
24 
A. 
To Jeffrey Epstein's, because I know 
25 
I
 
worked for him and he was sending 
MI 
Lc 
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Page 109 
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school, too. 
2 
And then -- I don't know. Then I found out --
3 
I guess then I found out she went to 
or something, 
4 
somewhere weird. And we -- I never talked to her -- you 
5 
know, we never talked to her again. But 
III 
s 
working for Jeffrey, too, cleaning. That's how 
actually got the job, was through 
Ililland 
Q. 
So what -- the question was about being 
suspicious that she was using drugs. 
A. 
Because -- I'll tell you why. Because I 
noticed a couple times that 
-- when I'd see 
in 
III II and 
, they had white powder on their 
nose. 
Q. 
And you knew what that was, right? 
A. 
I'm sure it wasn't baby powder. 
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1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
Q. 
When did you first suspect she was using 
Xanax? 
7 
A. 
I didn't know about Xanax. 
8 
Q. 
When did you first suspect she was using 
9 
Xanax? 
10 
A. 
I guess when her friends -- I guess when her 
11 
friends and Jeffrey Epstein turned her on and had her 
12 
doctor shopping. 
13 
Q. 
Well, what do you mean by that? You said two 
14 
things. 
15 
A. 
Oh, she came from Jeffrey Epstein's a few 
16 
times a little looped. 
17 
Q. 
What was she looped on? 
18 
A. 
I couldn't tell you because I wasn't there. 
19 
Q. 
Well then, how do you know she came from 
20 
Jeffrey Epstein's looped? 
21 
A. 
Because the last I knew she was working. 
22 
Q. 
No. No. I want to know, you said she came 
23 
from Jeffrey Epstein's looped. Did you see her when she 
24 
came from Jeffrey Epstein's looped? 
25 
A. 
Well, when I got to the house and she was 
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looped and she told me she just got off of work, that's 
2 
where I assumed she'd been. 
3 
Q. 
Oh, you assumed, --
4 
A. 
Yes. 
5 
Q. 
-- but you didn't know? 
6 
So you didn't go pick her up from Jeffrey 
7 
Epstein's? 
8 
A. 
No, sir. 
9 
Q. 
Well, let's assume that -- that she told you 
10 
that she'd just gotten off work and you saw her and she 
11 
was looped. That would have then caused you even 
12 
greater concern about what was going on at 
13 
Mr. Epstein's, right? 
14 
A. 
Yeah. 
15 
Q. 
So did you pick up the phone or go over to 
16 
Mr. Epstein's at that point to find out why your 
17 
daughter was -- to use your words -- looped? 
18 
A. 
Honestly, no, I didn't. 
19 
Q. 
Okay. Because you weren't that concerned 
20 
about it? 
21 
A. 
No, sir. That's not why. 
22 
Q. 
Okay. Was she still hanging out with this 
23 
fellow, 
, at the time? 
24 
A. 
Yes, she was, and 
25 
Q. 
And what did you do, if anything, about 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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interceding with her at her age, which was -- what? 
2 
15, hanging out with this 
III I and 
and 
3 
, who you now have said as to 
III land 
4 
, you observed them with white powder on their 
5 
nose? 
6 
A. 
Sir, you know what? It's a very hard thing to 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
say because, you know what? I went to business. So 
it's just like you if you have children. When you leave 
your house, do you know what your kids do 24/7? No, I 
don't. 
When I leave to go to work, I don't know. My 
daughter could say she's home and, sir, I don't know if 
she's there or if she stepped out. 
Q. 
Okay. So you say the first time you were 
aware or concerned about your daughter using Xanax was 
on some occasion when she was with her friends? 
A. 
I didn't say my daughter -- I didn't -- I 
didn't say I was concerned about my daughter using Xanax 
at all. You said it, not me. 
Q. 
Well, the truth of the matter is, you did 
believe your daughter was using Xanax, didn't you? 
A. 
No, I can't honestly say I did. I had 
suspicion. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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We have to change tapes. 
2 
VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 11:28 
3 
a.m. This marks the end of tape one. 
4 
(Brief recess.) 
5 
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 
6 
11:30 a.m. This marks the beginning of tape two. 
7 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
8 
Q. 
Now, you say that there were several 
9 
occasions, I think you described two, where you say you, 
10 
personally, talked to Jeffrey Epstein on the phone. Do 
11 
you recall that? 
12 
A. 
Yes, I talked to him personally on the phone. 
13 
Q. 
Do you know how many times? 
14 
A. 
No. 
15 
Q. 
And were these occasions when he was at his 
16 
house in Palm Beach? 
17 
A. 
You know, I know a couple of occasions he was 
18 
in New York getting ready to come back. And just that 
19 
told 
when he was coming back to -- that he needs 
20 
her to work at the house. 
21 
Q. 
When you say, he told 
, I thought you 
22 
were having this conversation with him? 
23 
A. 
No. Sometimes 
would be there and I'd 
24 
give her the phone. 
25 
Q. 
I want to know 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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A. 
But I know he called. 
2 
Q. 
I want to know about now specifically the 
3 
conversations that you, personally, had with Mr. Epstein 
4 
on the other end of the phone. That's my question. How 
5 
many times did it occur that you, personally, had phone 
6 
conversations with Mr. Epstein? 
7 
A. 
I would say, maybe three, four, because he 
8 
called a couple times to tell me there was some kind of 
9 
music tickets coming -- he was Fed-Exing her music 
10 
tickets. 
11 
Q. 
On those occasions that you had direct phone 
12 
contact with Mr. Epstein, was he in his house in Palm 
13 
Beach? 
14 
A. 
I don't know, sir. 
15 
Q. 
Do you know where he was? 
16 
A. 
No, sir. 
17 
Q. 
Now, you said, and there were other phone 
18 
conversations where he called and all you did was give 
19 
the phone to 
20 
A. 
Yes. 
21 
Q. 
You didn't participate in those phone 
22 
conversations? 
23 
A. 
No. If 
was there, I handed her the 
24 
phone directly. But on occasion that they would tell me 
25 
just if I, you know, when I contacted her, let her know 
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if she could work this day or time or whatever. 
2 
Q. 
Do you -- did your daughter ever tell you what 
3 
the basis of her compensation was? 
4 
MR. 
: Object to the form. Asked and 
5 
answered. 
6 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
7 
Q. 
Did she get paid hourly or by the day? 
8 
A. 
No. I never discussed that with her. 
9 
Q. 
All right. And did she ever tell you what the 
10 
total compensation she received was? 
11 
MR. 
: Object to the form. Asked and 
12 
answered. 
13 
THE WITNESS: No. 
14 
BY MR. LUTTIER: 
15 
Q. 
And by "total," I mean, you know, collectively 
16 
for a month or two months. 
17 
A. 
No. 
18 
Q. 
Now, this happened -- this was all occurring 
19 
during a period of time that you claim you thought she 
20 
was in school; is that right? 
21 
A. 
Yes. 
22 
Q. 
Didn't you know that she had already dropped 
23 
out of school by then? 
24 
A. 
No. 
25 
Q. 
And you -- were you home on all occasions when 
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your daughter went to Mr. Epstein's? 
2 
A. 
Absolutely not. 
3 
Q. 
So you didn't really know where she was? 
4 
A. 
Absolutely not. 
5 
Q. 
So in the day, all you knew is, you left and 
6 
you had no idea if she was in school or at Mr. Epstein's 
7 
8 
or at the beach or anyplace else? 
A. 
Correct. 
9 
Q. 
And when you came home, all you knew is she 
10 
was either home or she wasn't home, right? 
11 
A. 
That's correct. 
12 
Q. 
Did you ever tell her that you didn't want her 
13 
hanging out with this guy, 
14 
A. 
Yeah. 
15 
Q. 
And what did you tell her specifically? 
16 
A. 
I told her I just didn't want her to hang out 
17 
with him, that his aunt didn't want them to hang out 
18 
and... 
19 
Q. 
Whose aunt? 
20 
A. 
aunt. 
21 
Q. 
aunt? 
22 
A. 
Yeah. 
23 
Q. 
And how did you know 
aunt didn't want 
24 
them to hang out? 
25 
A. 
Because we've had conversations. 
PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. 
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