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well. 
Q. When you began spending time with Maxwell and Epstein, what 
was your impression at the time of how old they were? 
A. I thought approximately the same age as my parents, my mom. 
Q. And again, just to be very clear, how old were you when you 
first started spending time with Maxwell and Epstein? 
A. 14. 
Q. What kind of activities would you typically do when you 
spent time with Maxwell and Epstein during those first few 
months? 
A. We would spend time at the house and sort of chitchat 
and -- or eat in the kitchen or hang out by the pool, sometimes 
going to the movies. Casual stuff. 
Q. What, if anything, do you remember about spending time at 
the pool during those first few months? 
A. Well, I remember maybe the first time I went to the 
poolside. And I walked out there. And there was at least four 
women and Ghislaine all topless, and some of them were naked. 
Q. What was your reaction to that? 
A. Well, I was just shocked because I hadn't seen that before. 
Q. In those first few months when you spent time at the house 
in Palm Beach, did you have conversations with Maxwell? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What kinds of things would she talk about with you? 
A. Well, we would chitchat, talk about school. She would ask 
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me, you know, what I was up to, and ask me if I had any 
boyfriend at school. 
Q. During those first few months, as you were getting to know 
her, how did Maxwell come across to you? 
A. She seemed a little bit odd and quirky; but, you know, she 
would kind of like tease me at times and -- but she was nice. 
Q. How would you describe your relationship with Maxwell those 
first few months when you started spending time with her? 
A. In the first few months, I felt like I think she might have 
said, I'm sort of like an older sister. Because I at least 
thought that she was the same age difference maybe as my oldest 
sister, but I wasn't sure. 
Q. And at that time, approximately how old was your oldest 
sister? 
A. Twenty-seven. I'm not great at math. Sorry. 
Q. Did there ever come a time when Epstein ever gave you any 
gifts or money? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately when did that first happen? 
A. It happened probably a few visits in. 
Q. What do you remember about the first time that that 
happened? 
A. I just remember that he said good-bye to me and was going 
to lead me to the front door. And he put cash in my hand. And 
I was a polite kid who didn't want to look. And I said, No, 
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it's okay. 
And he said, No, no, no. It's okay. This is for your 
mother. I know she's having a hard time, so it's not a big 
deal. 
Q. After that happened, did he ever give you any money again? 
A. Yes. 
Q. How often would that happen? 
A. Almost every visit. 
Q. Did there come a point where he began paying for things for 
you? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What kinds of things did he help pay for? 
A. He helped pay for some voice lessons, he bought me some 
clothes, things for school. 
Q. In your conversations with Maxwell, in that first few 
months that you were spending time with her and with Epstein, 
did you ever have any conversations with her about boyfriends? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What do you remember her telling you? 
A. I just remember her telling me at one point when I said, 
No, I don't have a boyfriend, she said, Well, remember when you 
do, that once you fuck them, you can always fuck them again 
because they're grandfathered in. 
Q. What was your reaction to that when she told you that? 
A. Well, I giggled because I didn't understand what 
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"grandfathered" meant, first and foremost. 
Q. Did there ever come a time when you went shopping with 
Maxwell and Epstein? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately when was that? 
A. Sometime at the end of 1994 or 
Q. Did they buy you anything? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What did they buy you? 
A. They bought me some -- some pants and some shoes, like, 
sort of loafers. I remember some shirts, like, sort of a 
preppy button-up shirt, like a cashmere sweater. 
Q. During that trip, did you go shopping for anything else 
with them? 
A. Yes, we went to a Victoria's Secret and bought some 
underwear. 
Q. What kind of underwear did they buy you? 
A. It was sort of those, like, white cotton briefs; like, the 
very sort of, I would say, basic-looking ones that you would, 
sort of, wear when you're -- when you're younger. 
Q. During this time in the first few months when you were 
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein, did they ever tell you 
anything about their social circle? 
A. Yes. I mean, from the very beginning there was a lot of 
bragging about how they were friends with essentially everyone, 
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and they knew everyone. And they would sort of name-drop or 
sometimes put people on speakerphone whose voices I didn't know 
and then say, Oh, well, this was so-and-so and so-and-so; and 
just, you know, say that they were very well-connected and 
affluent. 
Q. How did that make you feel at the time? 
A. I mean, I guess it made me feel slightly intimidated, but 
it was overwhelming. And also I just -- I didn't know how I 
was supposed to feel about it. 
Q. What names do you recall them mentioning to you when they 
would tell you about their social circle? 
A. Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Mike Wallace, people at some 
that I didn't know. 
Q. I want to ask you now about the house in Palm Beach where 
you were spending time with Maxwell and Epstein. 
Could you please describe for the jury how that house 
in Palm Beach was decorated. 
A. It was -- I mean, it was a giant house, and so it had lots 
of furniture, or at least in my opinion it was lots of 
furniture, and lots of artwork and sculptures. And there was a 
lot of, like, memorabilia and pictures, and pictures with 
famous people and presidents and things like that. 
Q. What do you remember about the pictures and artwork inside 
the house in Palm Beach? 
A. Well, not knowing much about art, I thought some of it was 
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maybe a little bit odd. You know, there were some paintings 
of, like, naked women or half-naked women and, like, lots of 
kind of -- or animals, like creepy looking animals. 
Q. How did you feel when you were spending time inside that 
house? 
A. "Intimidated" I guess is the first word I think of. 
Q. You testified earlier that there came a time when you had 
sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein. Again, approximately when 
was that, the first time? 
A. In 1994. 
Q. And again, how old were you? 
A. Fourteen. 
Q. Where were you when that happened for the first time? 
A. In Jeffrey's Palm Beach house. 
Q. Can you describe for the jury what happened that day. 
A. Well, Jeffrey was asking me, you know, You really need to 
focus on what you want to do; you can't be broad. You know, do 
you want to be an 
Do you want to do theater? Do 
you want to be an actress or model? 
We just sort of discussed that. 
He said, Well, you know, I know everybody. I know all 
the agents. I know all the photographers. I know, you know, 
the owner of Victoria's Secret. So I can make things happen, 
but you just have to be ready for it. 
Q. After he said that, what's the next thing that happened? 
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A. The conversation just sort of ended abruptly. It was in 
his office. And he just took my hand and he said, Follow me. 
Q. Where did he take you? 
A. He took me outside in the backyard past the pool to the 
pool house. 
Q. Could you please describe for the jury what happened when 
he took you inside the pool house. 
A. He took me in the pool house. And on the right-hand side 
was this couch, futon-looking thing. And he just proceeded to 
pull me over. And he sat in the corner and he didn't say a 
word. And he just pulled his pants down. He was wearing 
sweatpants. And he pulled me on top of himself and he 
proceeded to masturbate on me. And then he just -- he got up 
and he went into the bathroom and, like, cleaned himself up, 
and then acted like nothing happened. 
Q. What was your reaction when he did that to you? 
A. Well, I was frozen in fear. I'd never seen a penis before, 
let alone not seen anything like this. 
Q. Did you tell anyone that day about what happened to you? 
A. No. 
Q. Why not? 
A. Because I was terrified and felt gross and I felt ashamed. 
Q. After the incident that you just described, did you 
continue spending time with Maxwell and Epstein in Palm Beach? 
A. Yes. 
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Q. After that day that you just described, did there ever come 
a time when you saw Ghislaine Maxwell without her clothes on? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately when was that? 
A. Shortly after the first incident. 
Q. Could you please describe for the jury what happened that 
day. 
A. The three of us were just spending time together hanging 
out and talking. And then all of a sudden, in that same 
manner, just abruptly said, you know, Follow me. And we went 
upstairs. I followed them up this -- felt like a winding 
staircase, up into Jeffrey's bedroom. 
Q. Once you got to the bedroom with Epstein and Maxwell that 
day, could you please describe for the jury what happened next. 
A. They moved me over to the bed and took their clothes off 
and started to like sort of, like, fondle each other and sort 
of, like, kind of casually giggling about it. And I was just 
standing there. 
And he asked me to take my top off. And then, you 
know, sort of just there were hands everywhere. And Jeffrey 
proceeded to masturbate again. And Ghislaine was like rubbing 
on him and kissing on him and, you know, fondling. And then 
that was it. 
Q. After the incident that you just described, did your visits 
to Epstein's house in Palm Beach include sexual contact? 
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A. Yes. 
Q. And I just want to be clear about this. For the incident 
that you just described when you were alone in a room with 
Epstein and Maxwell, how old were you when that happened for 
the first time? 
A. Fourteen. 
Q. After that day, did your visits to Epstein's house in Palm 
Beach include sexual contact? 
A. Yes. 
Q. I'll ask you now about what happened during those 
incidents. Were there times when you were alone with Epstein 
and Maxwell when you were 14? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What kinds of things would happen when you were alone with 
Epstein and Maxwell when you were 14? 
A. I'm sorry, in what context? 
Q. When you were 14 years old and there were times where you 
were alone with Maxwell and Epstein, what kinds of sexual 
contact would occur during those incidents? 
A. It would be them leading me to a massage table and showing 
me how Jeffrey likes to be massaged. 
Q. Who would tell you how Jeffrey likes to be massaged? 
A. Ghislaine and Jeffrey. 
Q. How did he like to be massaged? 
A. Like, he -- he liked -- like, very hard, like 
like, 
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rubbing his shoulders really hard, and like twisting his 
nipples hard, and rubbing his feet hard and, like, his head. 
Q. Where in the house would incidents like this typically 
happen? 
A. In a massage room that was off, like, the master bedroom. 
Q. Did anyone ever give you instructions during incidents like 
this in the massage room? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Who would give you instructions? 
A. Ghislaine and Jeffrey. 
Q. What kind of instructions would they give you? 
A. Just showing me, you know, what he likes, what -- you know, 
what men like, what women like, you know, sort of touching on 
breasts and touching his penis. 
Q. What was Maxwell's demeanor like during these incidents? 
A. I would say that it seemed very casual, like it was -- like 
it was very normal, like it was not a big deal. 
Q. And when she behaved like that, how did that make you feel? 
A. Well, it made me feel confused because that did not feel 
normal to me; I'd never seen anything like this or felt any of 
this, and it was very embarrassing. You know, it's all these 
mixed emotions. When you're 14, you have no idea what's going 
on. 
Q. During these incidents that we've been discussing, did 
Epstein touch your body? 
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A. Yes. 
Q. Where did Epstein touch your body? 
A. He would touch-he 
would touch 
Q. During these incidents we've been discussing when you were 
14, did you touch Epstein's body? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Where did you touch his body? 
A. Everywhere. 
Q. When you were alone with Maxwell and Epstein when you were 
14, did anyone ever use a sex toy? 
A. Yes. 
Q. I'm sorry to ask you this, but could you please describe 
for the jury what would happen during those incidents. 
A. He liked to, like, use, like, vibrators that were different 
sizes; and even, like, those -- like -- like the back massagers 
that were, like, really, you know, painful. 
Q. During those incidents, what did Epstein do with that back 
massager? 
A. He would -- he would put it 
ven if I said 
that it hurt. 
Q. During these incidents, did Maxwell ever touch your body? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Where would she touch you? 
A. I would say mainly 
Q. Earlier, I believe you said that during these incidents, 
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you touched Epstein everywhere. Can you explain for the jury 
what you meant by that. 
A. I meant he -- he wanted to be massaged really from head to 
toe. He liked his head rubbed, his shoulders, he liked his 
nipples squeezed, his feet and his penis. 
Q. Approximately how often did incidents like this occur when 
you were 14 years old? 
A. Approximately every visit to his house. 
Q. Were there ever sexual interactions with Maxwell and 
Epstein when other people were present as well? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately how old were you when that happened for the 
first time? 
A. Fourteen or 15. 
Q. Where would those incidents typically take place? 
A. In one of Jeffrey's houses. 
Q. Were there times where you traveled to other houses that 
Epstein owned? 
A. Yes. 
Q. I want to talk with you about that in a few minutes. The 
incidents you've been describing where other people were 
present, how would they typically start? 
A. I'm sorry, can you --
Q. Of course. 
When there were incidents between you and Maxwell when 
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typically start? 
A. It would be other people spending time at the house, sort 
of hanging out, seemingly casually. And then it was, once 
again, sort of, it seemed just abruptly everything would stop. 
And someone, Ghislaine or Jeffrey, would sort of summon 
everyone to, you know, follow to a room. 
Q. Where would everyone go? 
A. To either Jeffrey's bedroom or mainly the massage room. 
Q. During these incidents where other people were present, 
what would Maxwell typically do? 
A. Well, she, along with others, would just start taking their 
clothes off. And Jeffrey would get on the massage table, and 
it would just, you know, sort of turn into this orgy. 
Q. What, if anything -- what, if any, 
during these sessions? 
A. My underwear. 
Q. During incidents like this where other people were present, 
what kinds of sex acts would occur? 
A. Kissing, oral sex on each other, oral sex on Jeffrey, 
full-on intercourse. 
Q. How often was Maxwell present in the first year that that 
happened to you? 
A. I can't give an exact number. 
Q. Were there times where there were incidents like this where 
clothing did you wear 
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she was not present? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately how often would she be present during these 
incidents? 
A. I'm sorry, can you explain that? 
Q. If there were times when she was present and times when she 
wasn't present, approximately how often would she be present 
for group sessions like this? 
A. I don't know. 
Q. During these incidents where other people were present, 
were there ever sex toys that were used? 
A. Yes. 
Q. What do you remember about that? 
A. I mean, it was pretty much the same thing: Using vibrators 
on girls' vaginas. 
Q. The other people who were in the room during incidents like 
this, what was their gender? 
A. Female. 
Q. Approximately how old were they? 
A. Older than myself, but I don't know. 
Q. During these incidents when other people were present, were 
there any -- were there any particular acts that Epstein 
particularly liked or requested? 
A. Sorry. When other people were present? 
Q. Yes. 
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A. I don't know if there's anything he particularly liked. 
_ 
saw different acts, but 
Q. Again, to be clear, where in the house would incidents like 
this typically happen? 
A. The massage room. 
Q. Could you please describe that room for the jury. 
A. In which house? 
Q. In the Palm Beach house. 
A. Oh. 
Q. Sorry. 
A. It was -- it looked like maybe it was light, because it was 
off the master bathroom, which was sort of -- it had like a 
beachy feel. 
Q. What was in the room? 
A. I don't think I saw anything past the massage table. 
Q. Did anyone ever call the incidents that you've just 
described a massage? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Who would call it that? 
A. Jeffrey. 
Q. Did incidents like this continue when you were 16? 
A. Yes. 
Q. How frequently did these incidents occur between when you 
were 14 and when you were 16? 
A. The number or --
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Q. How often would it happen during those years? 
A. It would happen almost every visit with him, which would 
have been every two weeks. 
MS. MOE: Your Honor, if I could just have one moment. 
THE COURT: Yes. 
(Counsel conferred) 
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 
BY MS. MOE: 
Q. Earlier, you were describing an incident when Maxwell was 
in the room when you were 14. Just to be clear, during the 
incidents you've been describing to the jury when you were 14, 
was Maxwell in the room? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And when these incidents would occur when you were 14, was 
Maxwell in the room? 
A. At times. 
Q. And when you were 16, were there times when Maxwell was in 
the room? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Did there ever come a time when you traveled with Jeffrey 
Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Approximately when did you begin traveling with them? 
A. At 14 years old. 
Q. About when did you last travel with them? 
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A. In March of 2001. 
Q. I want to focus now on the years when you were 14, 15, and 
16. About how many times did you travel with them during those 
years? 
A. Maybe ten times. 
Q. Where did you travel with them when you were 14, 15, and 
16? 
A. From Palm Beach to New York City, and also Santa Fe, New 
Mexico. 
Q. When you traveled with them to those locations, how did you 
get there? 
A. Mainly on Jeffrey's private plane. 
Q. Did you ever get there another way? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And how was that? 
A. Commercial flights. 
Q. When you flew in the private jet, did Maxwell ever go with 
you? 
A. Yes. 
Q. How would these trips typically be arranged? 
A. They would be arranged by Jeffrey's office. 
Q. Where did you typically stay when you traveled with Maxwell 
and Epstein? 
A. At Epstein's house. 
Q. Did Maxwell ever assist you in making travel arrangements? 
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A. Yes. 
Q. I want to talk about some of the locations that you just 
mentioned. Did some of those trips include travel to New York? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Where did you stay when you traveled with Maxwell and 
Epstein to New York? 
A. Epstein's house. 
Q. Where was that house located? 
A. New York City. 
Q. In what borough? 
A. Do you need the exact address? 
Q. No, it's okay. 
Approximately where was it within the city? 
A. Upper East Side. 
Q. Thank you. 
Could you please describe for the jury what the house 
on the Upper East Side looked like. 
A. Well, it looked more like a building than a house. It was 
eight stories, his massive eight-story house building where you 
walk through these giant doors and then there was, like, 
another security door to go in. And it had an elevator and it 
was eight stories. 
Q. How was the house decorated on the inside? 
A. It was -- it was very dark, I felt. You know, very, 
very -- like an old building. Lots of stone, you know, old 
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wood, and lots of, like, fabric wallpaper, like red curtains, 
lots of artwork, statues, paintings. 
Q. When you spent time in the house, what, if anything, did 
you notice about the artwork, the statues, and the paintings? 
A. I thought some of it was a little creepy personally. There 
was, you know, like, animals and giant, like, paintings that 
looked kind of -- I don't know how you would -- how I would 
describe it, but just felt uncomfortable. 
Q. 
the 
A. 
was 
What made you feel uncomfortable about 
artwork in the house? 
It all sort of seemed like to have a dark theme, like it 
kind of, you know, intimidating and dark and, like, animal 
heads and strange things. 
Q. 
the paintings and 
Did any of the artwork inside the house in New York contain 
nudity? 
A. Yeah. 
Q. 
A. 
It 
What did you notice about that? 
Paintings of naked women and orgies and things like that. 
didn't seem very unusual at this point. 
Q. When you would spend time inside that house in New York, 
how did you feel when you were inside the house? 
A. Intimidated. It wasn't a very warm place; you didn't feel 
very, maybe, safe. I kind of felt like -- you always kind of 
felt like someone is watching you. You didn't feel free to 
roam around exactly. 
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Q. What rooms in the house did you spend time in when you 
would stay in the house in New York? 
A. What rooms would I spend time in? The room that I was 
given, which was the guest room on the eighth floor, or 
Jeffrey's bedroom, his bathroom, the massage room, or his 
office or the kitchen. 
Q. Earlier, you described having sexual contact with Epstein 
and Maxwell in Palm Beach. Did that ever happen when you 
traveled with them? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Can you describe for the jury what kinds of sexual acts 
would happen when you traveled to New York when you were 14, 
15, and 16? 
A. It was a lot of the same. If it wasn't an orgy in the 
massage room, it was in Jeffrey's bedroom, and that would be 
mostly me alone with him. 
Q. What would happen when you were alone with him in the New 
York house when you were 14, 15, and 16? 
A. Well, he would get naked and get on his bed. And he would 
pull me on top of him and ask me to take my clothes off. 
Do you want me to describe in detail? 
Q. I'm sorry to ask, but if you could explain for the jury 
what would happen during these incidents. 
A. So he would show me what he likes. And basically, he 
would -- he would use vibrators on me, he would put his fingers 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
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